Talk:Kris (Deltarune)

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Merchandise Inclusion

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MOS:VG states to only include information about a character's merchadise if they have been extensively used in merchandise. ONE source that only mentions Kris passingly does not satisfy that requirement. Compare this to other Undertale character pages, which have multiple sources and discuss multiple pieces of merchandise. I am fine with its inclusion once it is properly sourced and properly included, but right now, it has a source that is not enough to include the information in the article. Please look into the manual of style and other notablity requirements/polices such as WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:10YEARS. Thank you.

User:NegativeMP1 User:Cukie_Gherkin IzzySwag (talk) 04:26, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This MOS is about sections, not mentioning merchandise. Also, WP:EVERYTHING is not relevant to this edit war. It emphasizes that what's matters is verifiability, not truth, and in this situation, we have a single line of text that is 100 percent truthful and 100 percent verified by a reliable, secondary source. It does not, under any circumstances, fall under indiscriminate information. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 04:28, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOTEVERYTHING states that information should not be included solely because it is true. The MOS should also be used as a reference point for the articles in general. You have been unable to provide additional sources that Kris is notable for their merchadise and having one line about a pinset that it is sourced from an article where they are barley mentioned is just not enough notability for inclusion. Please, compare to the Undyne, Papyrus, or Toriel pages. These also lack sole merchandise sections but still include multiple sources where their merchandise is discussed more than just in passing. IzzySwag (talk) 04:33, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is not included solely for being true, it was included because a reliable secondary source verified the info. You have demonstrated that you did not understand MOSVG, it does not say that merchandise needs multiple reliable sources to mention that a character received merchandise, it is only about the threshold for making a separate section. It's to make sure that you don't have a section with only one line in it. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 04:34, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It just literally isn't notable enough. You are adding something to an article that lacks notability, lacks any additional sources (that I can find), and are refusing to see another side of an argument. Included for being true can mean there's a source to back it up but that still does not mean it has encyclopedic value. You still only have it included it on this page because it is true. If wikipedia included every piece of one source information, the website would have so much garbage on it, it would become pointless. Refer once again to WP:NOTEVERYTHING. I will no longer engage in this conversation with you because you clearly are engaging in bad faith, a lack of wanting to improve wikipedia, and believe an article you created must not be touched by anyone else. Please check your behavior and be sure to engage in good faith in the future. IzzySwag (talk) 04:39, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have nothing here to add that Cukie already didn't. This isn't trivia, this isn't "including information solely because it's true", and the 10YEAR test doesn't apply here at all. It is a singular line of information that helps understand the usage of a character and their appeal. Also, your initial reasons for removing were originally that you didn't think the information was in line with an "appearances" section, per this edit. Your reasoning has completely shifted... I really don't understand this at all. λ NegativeMP1 04:40, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Chiming in because I saw this on VGCHAR's recent changes, but yeah merch is entirely viable to mention as it's part of promotion. Characters like Cyan Garamonde have theirs in their appearance section and Raichu (a featured article) have merch mentioned in the appearances section just fine. It's usually *better* to have it be part of Promotion and reception (or if there's a lot its own Promotion and merchandise section), but in a case like this where there's very little, it's fine to include.
Additionally looking at the article history you mentioned that game appearances go there, but appearances in other fictional media or media in general (i.e. card games) would also fall under Appearances.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 04:50, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

source for Kris being non-binary?

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I can't find anything pointing towards Kris being nonbinary aside from them being referred as "they", but if I remember correctly Toby left it up for player interpretation? There's not really any romantic themes in the game aside from comedic ones or ones chosen by the player (IMPORTANT that it's the player, not Kris themselves). I could be wrong. Constantos (talk) 15:29, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have not seen any source that suggests Kris is meant to be up to interpretation; further, in a Fangamer livestream, Toby Fox corrects someone saying "he" by saying "they". It's also supported by reliable sources. It's important to understand that non-binary is not always a specific label, it just refers to a character who exists outside of the gender binary (which "up to player interpretation" would nevertheless fall under even if it was true). - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:57, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that Kris's pronouns are not up for interpretation. Given the Kris-player tension that drives the game, it is clear that they are not a player insert meant to represent any gender. They strictly use they/them, and there is no indication that this shouldn't be taken at face value. They are not a boy or a girl. That being said, I do think the use of the term non-binary in this article might be a bit presumptuous, as it never explicitly used in-game. It is possible that they use a different label, such as agender or genderqueer, or that they do not use a label at all. In terms of strict factuality, I think that describing them as non-binary is overly prescriptive. It might be more appropriate to say Kris "appears androgynous," or simply leave it at "they/them pronouns are used for Kris." Ghostintraining (talk) 22:56, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i will disagree on that second to last part, but mostly on the bases of "appearing" being a different thing from "being", and "androgynous" being a different thing from "non binary". in any case, "non binary" refers to anything that isn't just "male" or "female" by design, so being agender would actually still mean they're nb
thus, if kris isn't explicitly male or female, and we don't know what kris is beyond using those pronouns that make the people with truck pfps on the bird app really angry for some reason, "non binary" is the closest we have
also, sources treat them as nb anyway, so even if this argument goes nowhere, we'd probably default to using what the sources use consarn (grave) (obituary) 23:18, 21 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's looking like ScreenRant is the only source for this claim, and over time I've noticed quite a strong editorial slant from them. I'd suggest reverting to describing Kris as androgynous, which seems to be much more widely accepted. Oktayey (talk) 17:55, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There aren't any sources calling them androgynous. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:52, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If no soundly reliable source makes a claim about this, maybe we should just stay safe and drop the descriptor altogether to avoid WP:CITOGENESIS. Now that I think about it, I think it's probably best to do so now and wait for consensus. Oktayey (talk) 21:42, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We have sources already Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:02, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think ScreenRant seems like a particularly reliable source for a claim like this. Oktayey (talk) 22:23, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
They are described as non-binary here, as well as here. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:28, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The latter source's reliability isn't apparent, and even if the former source were deemed reliable, its apparent bias would require its claim in this case to be attributed to it, per WP:BIASED. Oktayey (talk) 22:41, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The latter is a published scholarly source. Why are your replies attempting to pick at multiple independent sources instead of finding any sources for your position? Also, WP:BIASED doesn't apply because this isn't a contentious topic, no reliable sources are arguing that Kris is not non-binary. WP:BIASED does not work to say that LGBT-related RSes are unusable to verify issues under their purview. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:50, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I just want to chime in here and say "strong editorial slant" is a particularly weird thing to say about a source, Oktayey...as for Gayming Magazine, the wikiproject is considering it reliable per consensus here.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 05:09, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that they are deemed non-binary by an author of a scholarly journal is not a valid source of the claim that they are non-binary, as the scholarly article is neither source material nor endorsed by the creator of Deltarune, Toby Fox. There's no need for evidence that contradicts your claim when your claim is not valid to begin with. Your article presumes for the purpose of its premise that Kris is non-binary, it does not prove nor confirm Kris's gender identity. A primary source proving that Kris was non-binary would suffice, but as far as I can tell such a source doesn't exist. To be frank, as a creator of this page, which doesn't even have sufficient relevance or need for independence from the main page, it appears to me that you created this page just to create more "evidence" that Kris is nonbinary for your own agenda. 98.97.9.174 (talk) 21:28, 25 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
if it weren't for copyvio issues, i'd bring up so many screenshots from the highlighted pronoun mod...
jokes aside, the game routinely refers to kris with the singular "they". you know, the current standard for anyone of indeterminate gender or non-binary identity, used by characters who know kris, such as susie and alphys, in a way that clearly indicates that it's the latter case. to argue that kris isn't nb requires actively ignoring what the game itself has to say
honestly, i'm almost willing to argue that this is one of those wp:plotsource cases, where we can just leave the sentences "unsourced" and act like it's sourced to the work itself consarn (grave) (obituary) 21:52, 25 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
...also, what do you mean you're "a creator of this page"? are you mjl or cukie, accidentally editing while logged out? consarn (grave) (obituary) 21:55, 25 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure that would be OR, since you're making inferences about the source material rather than simply restating it. Sex-neutral pronouns are often used to avoid revealing a character's sex, either to support the plot in some way, or as an artistic choice. Oktayey (talk) 17:34, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
fair questions, i'll answer them with more questions
  • what excuse would alphys have to obscure kris's gender (not sex, that's a different thing) to toriel?
  • how would kris being nb not support the plot?
regardless of what sources say or don't say, the only way the game could be less subtle about kris being their own character with their own identity that happens to include the use of the singular "they" (which in turn places them out of the gender binary, thus making them non-binary) would be if they jumped out of the game and into your face, said "* oh yeah by the way my pronouns are they/them/that ralsei hugger <:3c", and went back to the game like nothing happened, but i think that plan is saved up for chapter 6 consarn (grave) (obituary) 18:07, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Remember the "four frogs" line in Undertale? A froggit in the Ruins correctly guesses that there are four frogs in his room instead of three, despite being unaware the fourth.
You don't need to scrutinize the dialog in an attempt to figure out how such a situation would make sense in the story's world, because in literature, artistic liberties may be taken to make the work more enjoyable or meaningful. These decisions may not make sense to the characters in the fictional world, but that's okay; art is meant for us, not the characters on the pages. Oktayey (talk) 18:29, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
okay, but consider the following. what if the characters refer to kris using the singular "they"... because kris is non-binary?
also, the froggit case isn't even comparable, as that one-off joke about the number of frogs in a room is completely different in execution from a character being written with certain things in mind and the plot doing everything short of directly screaming them at the player to make that clear
as an example of the logic this would require, vivian is never directly referred to as a trans woman in ttyd with those exact words in that exact order, which must obviously mean she's not a trans woman, despite the entire plot point of having adapted a female identity, and struggling with being understood that way by her peers and herself until an italian silhouette throws a wrench in that plan by tolerating her continued existence consarn (grave) (obituary) 19:17, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, the froggit case is quite different, but I think it illustrates the point that stories don't need to be told in a way that the characters can make sense of; sometimes, an artistic decision is deemed more important. Oktayey (talk) 20:01, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
...i really don't get what you're trying to imply by comparing those two. because one amphibian made a lucky guess, everyone saying something about kris somehow doesn't mean that thing is true? isn't that the exact opposite of the froggit case? consarn (grave) (obituary) 20:03, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I thought you suggested that it wouldn't make sense for the characters to communicate the way they do within the story's world if your conclusion wasn't correct. That's why I was pointing out that authors often forgo strict adherence to diegetic logic in order to make a story more interesting or meaningful. Was there a misunderstanding? Oktayey (talk) 20:48, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
None of this is relevant, the only relevance is that no source exists that can be described as 1) reliable and 2) countering the claims that Kris is non-binary. In a world with non-binary characters, a character who exists in the male-female binary, who is neither, who reliable sources call non-binary, we use what the reliable sources say. Androgynous has no source. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:51, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
obviously, this doesn't account for the chance of sources generally being wrong (which i wouldn't be surprised to see used as an argument here), but even if there were absolutely zero sources, why would tony fox (of spamton sweepstakes fame, and not much else) randomly decide that he should do this thing he's done before, but make it not literal for this one character and no one else? consarn (grave) (obituary) 20:55, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Asking for a source that disputes the claim is sort of shifting the burden of proof, isn't it? Most sources I've seen don't approach the thorny issue at all. I don't think it's realistic to expect reliable sources to directly address every dubious claim, especially ones confined to niche topics. Oktayey (talk) 21:24, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
it's not shifting the burden if there are sources that prove the claim. you do, indeed, have the burden of presenting some sort of solid evidence that all the sources and in-universe evidence we currently have are or might be wrong, instead of wasting our time with what amounts to "well, what if no" consarn (grave) (obituary) 21:35, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Are you and Gherkin the same person? Oktayey (talk) 21:39, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
if i had a nickel for every time i was accused of socking over supporting someone else's opinion, i'd have... uh... i think this would be my first nickel, actually
but no, having a sock that acts completely differently, uses as few capital letters and punctuation as possible, and speaks as if this was a social media platform would take too much effort consarn (grave) (obituary) 21:44, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I just thought it was odd how you acted like I was accusing you of shifting the burden of proof when I was responding to another user—that's all. Oktayey (talk) 22:20, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Consarn made the correct observation that an editor who believes that the burden of proof is on the one who provided proof of a claim and not the one who has not is clearly WP:NOTHERE. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:30, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That you responded to a valid observation about the fact that you have provided no sources to counter ours with this is what I expect from someone who had to be temporarily TBanned from topics related to gender identity Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:06, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is not OR to cite one of multiple reliable sources saying Kris is non-binary, a claim not contradicted by any reliable source, even Toby Fox. The fact that there are characters who are unambiguously non-binary in the game, like Napstablook, further affirms that non-binary characters exist in the world, so the plausibility that these reliable sources are correct is high. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 18:50, 26 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You are the only one with an agenda, bucko Cukie Gherkin (talk) 21:57, 25 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i guess that's a more direct way of saying what i wanted to say :kekw: consarn (grave) (obituary) 22:02, 25 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's also important to clarify, being androgynous is not itself exclusive from non-binary. Non-binary is an umbrella term, and can mean genderfluid and any number of other terms that don't fit neatly in male or female. The very act of using they/them pronouns is itself qualifying for non-binary status. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 21:17, 22 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Unless the canonical source material describes a fictional character as 'something', then we shouldn't call them that in wiki-voice. "Described by some as ..." seems to be well supported by the sources. Suggesting that 'use of the singular they means they are non-binary' is WP:OR by definition, the singular they has been used for centuries where gender or sex are ambiguous or unknown, "non-binary" and "unknown gender" are not the same thing. JeffUK 11:00, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
check out this cool mod, it highlights all the singular theys to prove that kris is a they/them of the themmest degree consarn (grave) (obituary) 11:07, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The mod only proves what we already know, which is that Kris uses (only) they/them pronouns. It does not however prove that Kris is non-binary. 2003:F7:6F09:1B55:C14C:D0BB:EF57:F62C (talk) 20:48, 3 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What Wikipedia guideline or policy requires that the source material source this information to the extent that you're asking? "Described by some as" is itself a violation of WP:NPOV, because it implies that this is a contentious claim. Nothing, not even the source material, contradicts the statement "Kris is non-binary." You're asking for is false balance, made even more explicit when you consider that Toby Fox corrected the use of "he", that non-binary characters exist in the world of Deltarune and Undertale canonically, and that Kris presents masculine and feminine. Frankly, I am not compelled by the argument that we should make an NPOV violation. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 11:39, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
even then, citation 5 outright starts by saying in no ambiguous terms that kris is nb, so i don't know what else people could want consarn (grave) (obituary) 11:53, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You mean the screen rant article that says " Toby Fox himself confirmed that Kris is canonically nonbinary." citing a reddit post which in turn cites a fuzzy unsourced screenshot that in turn does not actually show Toby Fox saying such a thing? Very weak. Even if all the sourcing was solid. Using them/them pronouns to refer to someone does not make them 'non-binary'. JeffUK 13:31, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
are we seriously doing this again?
if the standard pronouns for non-binary people being exclusively used for a character in and out of the game, including by people who are familiar with the character in-universe, and the developer himself out of it, aren't an indicator, what is? do we actually need screenshots from the highlighted pronoun mod in the article? consarn (grave) (obituary) 13:38, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Do what again? The use of Singular they to describe someone is entirely separate to that person's non-binary gender identity or lack thereof. We could absolutely have "They are referred to using only them/them pronouns" as that is supported by the source material itself. That some people have drawn the conclusion about the character's gender identity is also evident, and could be in the article. That 'They are non-binary' is not verified by the sources, as such, we should not draw that conclusion ourselves in the article. JeffUK 13:43, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
ever on and on, we continue circling around in a carousel of agony
what other reason would a game and its devs have to use the singular "they" for a character who is distinctly not a player avatar, in contexts where people are familiar with the character, themselves in the context of a work where non-binary characters already exist, aside from them not being strictly male or female? bringing the vivian example back from that other part of the thread, this logic would require arguing that she's not a trans woman because "no one said it with those exact terms", even though people have consarn (grave) (obituary) 13:50, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"what other reason would a game and its devs have..." we can wonder what's going on inside the devs' minds all we like, but drawing a conclusions would be WP:OR. As to "not being strictly male or female?" What does their sex have to do with either gender-neutral pronouns or whether they are non-binary? JeffUK 13:59, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Because we have reliable sources and common sense, it is not OR. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 14:01, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
you can't "well actually" the devs being consistent about something, especially not when sources follow suit consarn (grave) (obituary) 14:05, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The devs are consistent about using 'They/them' pronouns for Kris. I am 100% in agreement with that. So why don't we compromise and put that in the lead instead of the 'fact' that Kris is non-binary, which the article itself says is debated? JeffUK 14:06, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
even the people sort of doubting it say that it's nice that they use those pronouns, and the rest of the sources either have no doubts about the matter or are devs consarn (grave) (obituary) 14:08, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, in a livestream, Toby Fox corrected the use of he for Kris by saying they. This is a deeply uncontroversial thing to call them non-binary, the only controversy existing with non-RSes. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 14:19, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i think the link to that part of the stream might be needed here, so behold! blue text! i totally didn't steal it from you!
should probably bring the question of whether or not to use it (or the full stream with a timestamp) in the article here, since a youtube stream might not be on the usable side consarn (grave) (obituary) 14:32, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Do what again?" Sorry, let me repeat: commit an NPOV violation. Your argument thus far has been to give your perspective equal weight to reliable sources'. No reliable sources even implies that Kris may not be non-binary, so I'm fair to claim that you are presenting your own opinion as a counter to what reliable sources say. The use of 'they' to refer to the player is done whenever a pronoun is present, by people who, if Kris was male or female, would use male or female pronouns. Kris is referred to as they by their own mother, their teacher, their father, their childhood friend, their parents. The reliable sources provided are very explicit, and nothing in-universe or out-of-universe shows anything that even implies a contradiction to that. You can find more people who disagree on climate change than this, and yet we do not describe climate change as something that some climate scientists believe in. There's no point to this discussion, because it will never be compelling to say that your original research should take precedence over reliable sourcing. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 14:00, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i'm starting to think it's the classic misunderstanding of npov. namely, interpreting it as "all viewpoints have to be given equal weight". i'm pretty sure you know that the actual case is more among the lines of "claims are given weight proportional to the amount and quality of sources arguing for them" consarn (grave) (obituary) 14:12, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
also, if you want to argue that citation 5 is weak, citation 3 is an interview that includes chess (who helped with development) using that one possessive pronoun that starts with a t. you know, the one that rhymes with "air" consarn (grave) (obituary) 13:44, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i don't know why i'm surprised this is on this page. kris uses nothing but they/them. toby explicitly uses they/them for them. they are pretty obviously intended to be their own character and not a player insert. even if they weren't nonbinary and were actually just a cis person who happened to use they/them, they would still be using they/them. GeekTheSiren (talk) 06:14, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just going to outdent all this and say flat out there's a Keep It Simple Stupid approach that should be taken: the character is referred to by the creator, in related media, and the game itself as they/them. We don't have these same arguments if a character is using male or female gender, so it is reasonable to state they are non-binary unless told otherwise. Even if we assert that Kris has no canonical gender, that still falls under...non-binary. Now we have had instances where creators have come forth to state a character isn't; Tekkens Harada in the case of Leo Kliesen for example has been careful not to use they/them pronouns in regards to the character and outright stated Leo isn't non-binary. Such hasn't happened here. I feel it's fine to assert until stated otherwise.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:52, 27 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe that use of 'they/them' means that the character is non-binary. They/them is gender agnostic, A cis, trans, or non-binary character could use they/them pronouns. JeffUK 08:57, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
ignoring the fact that the already decently large umbrella term that is "non-binary" itself falls within the somewhat larger umbrella term that is "trans", can you please name at least one example of a cis person or character actually using they/them without figuratively or literally being multiple people?
no, really, this is a genuine request, my uncultured ass can't name any examples of that consarn (grave) (obituary) 11:05, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ignoring that non-binary people are usually considered transgender (at least by technicality), and that most people who use they/them at all would be considered nonbinary in some way… If a character were to be described using exclusively he/him or she/her pronouns across thousands of official mentions in- and out-of-universe, would you need to have additional proof of their gender? Would you argue that there was no evidence against their being genderfluid, or demigender? threeqc (talk) 12:45, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
is it bad that i have an answer, and that that answer includes postal 2 fanart? consarn (grave) (obituary) 13:00, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This all feels so strange, like even if a character or person existed who used they/them pronouns but identified as cisgender (Jeff, trans and non-binary are not mutually exclusive), it's such a fringe concept that the level of implausibility would reach "we can't assume that a character is a man or woman based on their pronoun use". I personally know cis lesbians who use he/him, but that doesn't reach the level of plausibility to make "he/him means male" to stop being true. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 13:29, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I don't think focusing on the pronouns is productive. I think editors are supposed to focus on what sources say, not what they imply (WP:SYNTH), so I don't think the pronouns a source uses to refer to a character is relevant, since you'd be drawing a conclusion which the source doesn't claim. Oktayey (talk) 20:01, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We're not drawing conclusions, we're citing reliable sources staying they're non-binary. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:28, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
problem: what if the sources say the thing you're saying they don't say? consarn (grave) (obituary) 20:44, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kris is not canonically non-binary. This is the only logical conclusion when official sources about the they/them characters in Undertale never say they are non-binary and only ever say their gender is "unstated". Also in the game itself Susie literally uses both she/her and they/them pronouns for Undyne, Toby made a bunch of fandom jokes so he's clearly aware of the discourse but shows no interest in confirming Kris as non-binary, none of the other devs have said anything despite sometimes having corrected the record on other matters...
There really isn't a case to write "Kris is non-binary" when all you have are they/them pronouns (are gender-ambiguous characters really supposed to never be referred to with third-person pronouns), a passing reference to Kris as non-binary in an obscure paper about machine translating pronouns, and a "TOP TEN THINGS YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT KRIS DELTARUNE" churnalism article that really shouldn't be considered a reliable source.
Also we've already had this conversation on List of fictional non-binary characters and there the consensus has generally come down on the side of not including Kris et al.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 19:48, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  1. What official sources say the gender is "unstated"?
  2. I'm sorry, when does Susie use they to refer to Undyne?
  3. Toby Fox absolutely has corrected the record on Kris' pronouns, correcting someone calling Kris 'he'.
  4. A character being referred to as they/them when ambiguity isn't possible (i.e., a character's mother would realistically know their child's gender, and saying otherwise would venture outside the realm of common sense) consistently has a specific meaning.
  5. It being a passing reference is not relevant, since the only standard a source needs to meet here is whether it calls Kris non-binary. That being said, the mention was stating that a future paper would be analyzing Kris through this lens.
  6. The paper is both a published work and cited eight times, which, while not a blowout source, is by no means obscure.
Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:27, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
in defense of question 1, citations 12 and 13 aren't 100% sure kris is nb, but in prosecution of that point (that's the antonym here, right?), even they think it'd be nice and choose to treat kris as if that was the case
...but really, where'd that claim come from? this is a first even for this discussion consarn (grave) (obituary) 20:53, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
that discussion was almost 2 years ago, i'm pretty sure kris would be included if someone started another one consarn (grave) (obituary) 20:56, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Legends of Localization: Undertale.
  2. "Maybe... Maybe that's why the Knight captured Undyne? They wanted to take their code so they could get in..." I also have a collection of non-Deltarune screencaps proving Wiktionary's statement that "Infrequently, they is used of an individual person of known, binary gender".
  3. I am going to quote what I've written before on this topic: Firstly, I think there's a strong argument to be made it wasn't an intentional correction, but more importantly, assuming it was an intentional correction, it was on an official stream used to announce the release of Chapter 2. The "Fangamer dads" that referred to Kris as "he" are not random people on the street. They are members of a company that works extremely closely with Toby, and anything they say is invested with almost as much authority as Toby himself in this context. If they referred to Kris as "he" and it was not corrected, the fandom would not take it as evidence that Kris has no canonical gender. They would take it as evidence that Kris is canonically male and headcanons of Kris as female or non-binary contradict canon. Therefore, if Toby wants Kris to be seen as gender-ambiguous, correcting them was his only choice.
  4. This is both pure original research and ignoring the fact that dialogue in fiction is frequently unrealistic. Assume that Toby intended Kris to have no canonical gender: what third-person pronouns do you think he should have used?
  5. The point is that the paper is not literary analysis; it is a paper researching machine translation which takes Kris being non-binary as one of its assumptions. I think some measure of obiter dicta has to apply, otherwise people could smuggle in all sorts of bullshit that a reliable source unknowingly repeats in passing.
  6. Eight citations isn't that many, and all the citations seem to be citing it for matters unrelated to Kris' gender. See my previous point.
Also, I forgot to mention this but if we're accepting ScreenRant there's no reason not to accept RPGFan from what I can tell, and they say Kris has no canonical gender.
@consarn, this is the discussion I was referring to. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 21:35, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Kris is not infrequently referred to with they/them, they are exclusively referred to with they/them. I do not know why you cite this definition, it pretty clearly is not relevant to a situation where they/them is frequently used. As far as the Fangamer interpretation, I find that pretty implausible. While Fangamer is connected to the series, they are not authorities, they didn't work on the game or have any involvement in Kris' development. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 21:42, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Susie's statement comes right after mentioning that the symbol of one of the shelter codes was the police badge. She's saying that the Knight kidnapped Undyne because they (the Knight) wanted their (the police's) shelter code to get in. This is kind of a weird argument, yeah? threeqc (talk) 21:47, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  1. could provide a link, or at least a page or quote. i like clyde and all, but without some context (since i couldn't pirate i mean find whatever mention this is), it's not worth much
  2. forgive me for my middling understanding of ch4, my monetary status is kind of tight at the moment, but i know for a fact that the knight also goes with the funny they/them, and that line sounds more like it's referring to them than to kris
  3. aren't they the same people who let the "he" that toby corrected slip?
  4. this is what i meant when i described certain arguments as "but what if no?". i'm not even in the mood to engage with this hypothetical anymore, no one here's given it any credit beyond the possibility of it maybe being the case probably
  5. what if that wasn't the only source saying it? what if the devs themselves (and not fangamer staff, close as they may be to toby) use the big ol' pronouns in the context of a character who tends to be open to speculation but not interpretation? what if the two sources currently in the article to doubt the claim are still in favor of it?
  6. idk, 8 seems like a fair bit of times to cite a thing to me, and even if it was just baby numbers for a small article like this, does the amount of times it's cited actually affect how credible it is?
as for the other discussion... i chose the older one that was partially about kris to try to make the argument look good. the second one had two comments about kris at the end and seemingly in passing, concluded nothing about them, and one of those comments was you. that last part isn't relevant to this discussion, it's just funny consarn (grave) (obituary) 21:52, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  1. p51: "Although the main character's gender is left unstated in Undertale", p91: "because the English script refers to Napstablook as "them" rather than "him" or "her", the localization team kept Napstablook's gender unstated and unclear as much as possible in the Japanese script", p159: "Toby designed [Monster Kid] to have no clear gender... ...Monster Kid's gender is never specified in the original script", p162: "As with several other characters in Undertale, Onionsan's gender is meant to be unclear".
  2. I parse the line as this: "They [the Knight] wanted to take their [Undyne's] code so they [The Knight] could get in".
  3. Er, that's exactly my point.
  4. I talk about this hypothetical because it's important to understand whether you consider the use of they/them to keep a character's gender ambiguous (from a non-diegetic perspective) valid. If Wikipedia does then it's definitely original research to dismiss it without, e.g. a scene where it's stated that other pronouns are incorrect.
  5. This is just the pronoun argument again, which is the entire thing this argument revolves around, so I don't see why you're bringing it up as if it was new evidence.
  6. Generally being cited more often is a sign of better credibility, at least as a rule of thumb. But the far more important point is that those citations aren't citing the paper as a source on Kris' gender.
About the other discussion, the topic of conversation, even if not directly about Kris, is directly about the issue at hand here.
@ThreeQC, I think you have to really stretch things to make the "their" in that sentence mean "the police", it doesn't fit the flow of the dialogue at all. I have no idea what you mean when you say that Fangamer "are not authorities". Are you saying that a large amount of Deltarune fans would not consider an uncorrected he/him evidence that Kris was male?--Eldomtom2 (talk) 22:23, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  1. thanks, but this says nothing about kris, as opposed to the mostly nothing i assumed before
  2. i mean... sure? let's not give much rope to the idea of it being a minor spelling mistake because that wouldn't be funny, but it definitely looks to me like a minor spelling mistake. as for the second part, you yourself said it's infrequent
  3. yes, and that point only lends more credibility to kris being nb
  4. again, toby says it, toriel says it, alphys says it, jevil has the excuse of not knowing, ralsei says it...
  5. i'm not, but a source that isn't a dev or fangamer staff conflicting with this argument by just saying the thing has only really been "argued against" by calling it weak. i can argue that it's reliable, but more importantly, i can argue that it states in no ambiguous terms what the case is and mentions who it's about in equally clear terms
  6. fair, put a pin on it, i'll likely do that when i'm done checking sources for this other thing
...for that last part, you treating what might be a single instance of an uncorrected "their" by someone who is not a dev as a genuine argument against the consistent and deliberate use of the same word for someone else worries me that you might think the answer is "yes". i mean, deltarune fans are of famously questionable literacy, but they'd probably interpret that as like 15 contradictory things at once lmao consarn (grave) (obituary) 22:51, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You have to "really stretch"? No. Susie says that one of the codes was adjoined by a police badge. Then, she says that the police probably had that code. She connects the pine tree code to the mayor. Then she wonders if the Knight kidnapped Undyne for "their" code, so that they could get in. The only alternative reading is that Susie suddenly uses they/them for Undyne for no reason at all, just so that your argument works. threeqc (talk) 23:15, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
> Kris is not canonically non-binary. This is the only logical conclusion when official sources about the they/them characters in Undertale never say they are non-binary and only ever say their gender is "unstated".
So, what you're calling the "logical" choice is to interpret what the Japanese localization team said years ago about different characters from a separate game? Characters in a completely different narrative and metatextual position?
> There really isn't a case to write "Kris is non-binary" when all you have are they/them pronouns (are gender-ambiguous characters really supposed to never be referred to with third-person pronouns)
There is also no case for Kris as a "gender-ambiguous" character, either. Legends of Localization never says that characters in Undertale have an "ambiguous" or "up-for-interpretation" gender. It's always "unspecified" or "unclear", and usually from the perspective of — what else? — localization. Members of the Fangamer team briefly used gendered pronouns for Kris on stream before correcting themselves (or possibly being corrected?) to they/them. Not to mention that it's an incredibly blatant plot element that Kris doesn't conform to the player's expectations, though I guess even this minute amount of interpretation is considered WP:OR… threeqc (talk) 21:45, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The book directly states that characters like Napstablook "have no stated gender", and then talks about the decisions the translation team made in light of that. If characters like Napstablook were intended to be canonically non-binary, there would be no reason for the book not to directly say and talk about how the translation team translated non-binary characters. Re: Kris not being a self-insert, this argument only gets trotted out for their gender and never for things like their ethnicity or sex. As for the difference between "ambiguous" and "unspecified", frankly I don't see a difference, especially not from the perspective of Wikipedia.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 21:58, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
But there's no dialogue that can be cited for their ethnicity Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:04, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
unless you've been withholding proof that clyde is specifically also referring to the english version of deltarune when talking about the japanese translation of undertale, that says only a little more than nothing. call me an ungrateful uriel if you want, but i want something that states this about kris instead of one that cites an extremely minor character in another game and another language as an example consarn (grave) (obituary) 22:06, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I just replied above with direct quotes - the structure of each of the four quotes in context is basically "Frisk's gender is unstated in the English version; here is how the fan translation erred by implying Frisk is male", "Napstablook is referred to by they/them pronouns in the English version; here is how the official translation dealt with that by keeping Napstablook's gender unstated and unclear", "Monster Kid's gender is unstated in the English version; here is how the official translation preserves that", "Onionsan's gender is unstated in the English version; here is how the official translation preserves that". So three out of four quotes are unambiguously referring to the English version. My point is that I feel this introduces enough doubt about Kris' gender that we should not be writing definitively that Kris is nonbinary. We can of course mention that many people interpret them as nonbinary.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 22:29, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
> The book directly states that characters like Napstablook "have no stated gender", and then talks about the decisions the translation team made in light of that. If characters like Napstablook were intended to be canonically non-binary, there would be no reason for the book not to directly say and talk about how the translation team translated non-binary characters.
This requires that Kris is a character "like Napstablook", which seems unlikely (Kris being an infinitely more relevant figure), and is also impossible to prove. There is no implication of this. It's all awfully circular, isn't it.
> Re: Kris not being a self-insert, this argument only gets trotted out for their gender and never for things like their ethnicity or sex.
People don't usually make a point of assigning Kris a "canonical" ethnicity, and dialogue doesn't corroborate any specific view in regards to it. In fact, there actually is real evidence from what Toby's said for an intentional lack of ethnicity in human characters. Unlike gender. As for sex, usually people who headcanon Kris as having a binary gender also headcanon them as being a particular sex.
> As for the difference between "ambiguous" and "unspecified", frankly I don't see a difference
There's a subtle difference between something that isn't stated and something for which there's no correct answer. threeqc (talk) 23:07, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Would a male or female character ever be referred to as such? I don't think a sentence like "Mario is a male plumber" would appear in any article and likewise I think Kris' genderlessness can be inferred from the lack of gendering in the article. Gazingo (talk) 18:28, 3 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really have an opinion on this matter (and most of my time monitoring this page has mostly been directing people to this discussion anyways as a neutral third party), but it may be relevant to point out that any extra attention going towards this page might be from this post on Twitter. I don't believe any canvassing is occurring at this point in time, but this talk page debate has been pointed out in the replies - so take that for what you will. λ NegativeMP1 22:34, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

surprisingly, reception to this article and even this discussion seems to be... positive!? i was expecting a complete shitstorm, but for once, the bird app seems to have gotten together and learned to read. i'm relatively confident that this will not cause a lot of trouble to the article consarn (grave) (obituary) 00:01, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think this has been a non-productive discussion for quite some time, and there really just needs to be an RFC so the matter can be settled instead of prolonged indefinitely. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:55, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

honestly. might as well, i'm pretty tired consarn (grave) (obituary) 23:58, 1 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I would support an RfC if it provided brief summaries of both side's position (I could provide one for the "Kris should not be described as canonically non-binary" position). I don't think a RfC that just said "Should the Deltarune character Kris be described as non-binary?" would produce informed responses.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 00:54, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
My thinking is that it would be addressing two things
  1. How should Kris' gender be addressed? A) Non-binary B) Described as non-binary C) Described as non-binary by (insert examples) D) Described as non-binary by critics E) No mention of non-binary in lead or concept/creation
  2. How should the gender field be handled? A) List them as non-binary B) Describe them as ambiguous C) Describe them as unstated D) Do not have a gender field
- Cukie Gherkin (talk) 01:01, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's too granular and some of the options are odd, like implicitly saying critical reaction should be in the "concept and creation" page (which needs a rewrite in any case and could possibly be removed, since there's basically no information on that topic). I'd say really all you need is "Kris' gender should be listed as non-binary"/"Kris' gender should be listed as unstated with the article saying many critics call them nonbinary". Then the finer details can be worked out once that's decided.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 01:23, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say that critical reception should be listed in that section, it was an option to cite the claim to specific or non-specific people. I also disagree fairly strongly with the idea of removing Concept and creation, and I don't understand why you believe it should be. There is info on their design and creation, as well as details on their character concept. It is not the largest such section, but a paragraph of content certainly surpasses the threshold. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 02:10, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think it should be removed or heavily rewritten because it only has two sentences that are actually about "concept and creation", and one of those is original research. But this is a separate topic.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 12:17, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think you misunderstand what original research means - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 12:39, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
are you referring to what's said in the article or the sources? because if an article says what sources say, that's not original research (as specifically defined by wikipedia), even if the sources themselves might be consarn (grave) (obituary) 15:35, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Kris was created by Toby Fox in either 2014 or 2015" is OR because it's sourced to a Twitter post of Toby that just posts a concept image with the caption "Original DELTARUNE concept art of the main characters from 2014 or 2015???" - it doesn't even say it was the first concept art of the main characters, let alone that the main characters were conceived around that time.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 16:48, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
unfortunately for this argument, said post contained long susie
...and also some human-looking kid with their eyes covered in one portrait and only one eye peeking through in the other, i guess. for it to be original research, one would need to find a way to argue that that's somehow not kris, or that the average reader wouldn't see that and go "wow that susie is long, and also that's a kris i guess" consarn (grave) (obituary) 17:02, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm baffled at what point you're trying to make here. My point has nothing to do with arguing that it's OR to identify the human in the concept art is Kris.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 18:03, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]


I'm assuming that you didn't mean to say that you're not arguing OR (because that would make you bringing up OR inexplicable), we have reliable sourcing to identify Kris as the main character of Deltarune. Wikipedians can and indeed should use common sense when editing, and common sense dictates that a character who looks virtually the same as Kris, the main character, who is also described as one of the main characters of Deltarune, is Kris, the main character. Also, if there was a misunderstanding of what you meant, it's solely because you, unhelpfully, dropped a comment about there being OR in the article and refusing to elaborate. Wikipedians are not mind readers, there's no benefit to dropping vague comments and waiting for people to ask for clarification. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 18:19, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's OR because we're assuming that concept art of main characters created 2014/15 = the main characters were conceived 2014/15, when there's nothing stopping the characters from existing in non-art form before that. Apologies if I came off as unclear in my first couple of comments on this specific topic, which should probably be split into a separate section.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 18:44, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
...strike this off the court record, it's irrelevant and incoherent. this entire or argument is, at its absolute best, grasping at straws. even on the off chance that this concept art is somehow completely unrelated to what would later become the fun gang, and that toby lied like a dog about the date said concept art was finished around, the burden to provide sources to disprove that (as opposed to your however manyth "but what if no?") is on you, and if you can't do that, we're done with this tangent and can go back to the nb thing consarn (grave) (obituary) 20:36, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, so that's your concern. In that case, we can tweak it to say "as late as 2014/2015" - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:54, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
too late, threeqc already did it consarn (grave) (obituary) 20:56, 2 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What do people think of this proposed phrasing? "Kris' gender, which is not explicitly stated in the game, has been interpreted by many fans and critics as non-binary due to them solely being referred to with they/them pronouns." I think that sticks to the facts while not prejudicing the reader against the nonbinary reading.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 00:27, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If we have a good source for this kind of claim, it looks alright to me. Though, tone-wise, I feel like "they/them pronouns" seems a little odd. How about "ambiguous pronouns", or "gender-neutral pronouns"? Either of these would also keep the statement from being English-centric, since obviously the Japanese localization doesn't use the same pronouns as the English version. Oktayey (talk) 04:53, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
They/them pronouns are not so obscure, and saying they use they/them pronouns is not exclusionary to how dialogue in the Japanese version works. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 06:34, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Saying that a character uses "they/them pronouns" has a very different connotation to "gender-ambiguous pronouns," obviously. Japanese pronouns are so divorced from the way they work in English that Susie uses the "masculine" ore at times. I don't currently know if there's an existing policy here, but trying to describe Japanese-translated pronouns on the English wiki feels counterintuitive to me for that reason. threeqc (talk) 13:35, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
this is like the fourth time this comes up, i don't think he understands the difference consarn (grave) (obituary) 14:41, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
oppose based on good ol' citation 7. ignoring what a source says, especially in a case where its only "opposition" among other sources is mild doubt followed by "but i vibe with that anyway", would be... uh... reverse synth? it's a case so unlikely even i can't even recall it having a name, and i don't want to find out what that name would be the hard way consarn (grave) (obituary) 11:01, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
TheGamer is not the only source that says Kris has no canonical gender - RPGFan also says it, and says it much more firmly. I also don't like using ScreenRant or TheGamer as sources for something like this - they're churnalism extremely vulnerable to citiogenesis - and that goes double when they're top ten clickbait listicles. But either way, for the sources in the article currently, it's 2 for Kris being canonically non-binary vs. 2 against, and if you take ScreenRant and TheGamer out it's 1 for vs. 1 against. So either way there's no consensus in the sources.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 16:12, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. While I do think that, were it to change, this would be acceptable with minor tweaks, I do not agree with the change. Further, I would contend that the gaymingmag source, despite not calling Kris non-binary, does call Frisk non-binary, who has a similar lack of explicit declaration. While not usable as a source in the article itself, it can be used to inform us on the fact that gaymingmag would likely conclude that Kris is also non-binary. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:18, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well if we're playing that game, we can drag out Legends of Localization: Undertale...--Eldomtom2 (talk) 16:21, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe that this contradicts anything? As far as I recall, it extends only to discussing Frisk's gender presentation in the Japanese version and stating that their gender is unstated (which is true), but doesn't contradict the notion that they are non-binary. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:41, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
it doesn't contradict anything about kris, but neither does it support anything. it's still about different characters (and onionsan) in a different game in a different language consarn (grave) (obituary) 17:16, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If it happens that Kris's status as nonbinary can't be proven, "All official sources use exclusively they/them for Kris, and some/many critics and fans consider Kris to be non-binary. However, their gender is never directly stated in-game, and is a point of disagreement among aspects of the fandom." is kind of the next best thing, yeah.
This topic is infuriating because Deltarune does discuss this question, and it gets so close to outright saying that Kris is nonbinary, but it doesn't quuuiiite make it if you aren't allowed to think about what things mean. The sign in MANCOUNTRY (Chapter 4 egg room) that says "NON-MEN ARE A-OK, TOO."? Well, it COULD be a reference to some kind of ambiguity. The wardrobe flavor text in Kris's Dark World room that says "It's a wardrobe full of all sorts of different clothes. You could wear whatever you want." Well, it COULD be that it was meant in a gender-conformal way.
The most trivial investigation of the game makes the answer clear, but since we can't have that — and since the writer(s) of the game are either (a) wary of directly stating Kris's gender and causing backlash or (b) waiting to state it explicitly so it can happen as a plot beat later — their gender is incredibly difficult to "prove" by Wikipedia standards.
The broader question is whether it has to be proven that a character is nonbinary, or that a character is ambiguous. For literally any other combination of pronouns, the answer is that the burden of proof is on the group claiming ambiguity. They/them pronouns in particular have this issue, and I think there probably should be some form of ruling on it eventually, though I don't know what the framing would look like. threeqc (talk) 21:40, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think there's a difference between "this character is ambiguous" and "we don't have enough information, especially information that doesn't require original research, to make a call on this character's gender at the moment". I'm arguing the article should take the latter position.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 21:49, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think you hit the nail on the head. Oktayey (talk) 21:55, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"We don't have enough information" is one of the perspectives I was describing in my comment, though my wording wasn't very clear. That's why I was saying that the problem is unique to this case (pronoun usage without statements to the contrary is enough information in every other case; official she/they pronouns would be enough to say a character is nonbinary, and exclusive he/him pronouns are usually enough to say a character identifies in a masculine way), and why I was saying there needed to be some kind of ruling on it. threeqc (talk) 23:21, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I presume you meant to say they/them, not she/they.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 23:48, 4 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
no, it seems that was just an example consarn (grave) (obituary) 00:21, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I simply don't see a good reason for us to include information that isn't outright confirmed in the game or by its developers. It goes without saying that singular "they" doesn't immediately confirm being non-binary. The allusions to being non-binary without explicity stating it could have been railroading us in one direction for a twist, a joke at the fanbase's expense, or something else. I'm not saying that I think any of those are true or particularly likely, but there are many directions it could go. Hints in the game aren't going to be particularly useful for a discussion on what to state in Wikipedia.
As for the "reliable sources" stating Kris' gender, that's fair, they are reliable by Wikipedia standards and policy states that's how we decide what to include. But policies are our guidance, not a hefty box of puzzle pieces to shift around to solve every editing dispute. It was a ScreenRant/paper writer who decided to confirm it and not Toby Fox. When the discussion devolves into something like this, we might as well invoke WP:IAR to put something similar to Eldomtom2's proposition, and we can all go home. Sadly, we can't put the truth about Kris' gender because we don't know it, so that's indeed the next best thing. What's preventing this one-sentence change from being added (and quenching the long and getting-unproductive discussion of these Wikipedia editors) is that there isn't a reliable source for that statement in particular, yet I doubt any reader of this article is going to see a statement that covers both sides of the fanbase's opinions and say "Where's the reliable source?" Whatever the devs' plans, the readers shouldn't be kept in the dark about there not being a direct confirmation of Kris being non-binary. Pxldnky77 (talk) 04:01, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with your points, though I will say we can use the game as a primary source for Kris' gender not being stated, plus the two sources mentioned previously. At the moment the article is in a worst of both worlds situation where it says Kris is non-binary in the text and infobox, but then in a footnote says that Kris' gender isn't stated but the article calls them nonbinary anyway "for brevity and clarity".--Eldomtom2 (talk) 17:40, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Rolling this back, part of the problem is the notion of whether or not one can assume a character is non-binary based off the use of 'they/them' pronouns. While normally this could be read as a player insert option, in this instance the character of Kris is not a player avatar; as supported by multiple sources, the red soul is the 'avatar' we're controlling, with Kris reacting to its actions at some points. There's also enough general consensus amongst sources, with no contrary statements from the developers or later works, to infer they are non-binary; if this were to change at some point, we can always change the article. There have been instances of a character's gender status changing during the course of usage and even multiple times i.e. (Leo Kliesen, Poison (Final Fight)). Now as far as wording in the article goes, I feel saying they are non-binary (using they/them pronouns) might be a neutral enough statement while including the gender in the infobox, as this both expresses the information as we are given it while using terms like "they have been regarded" or "many see them as" can come across as original research. Now if Toby Fox comes out and says otherwise it can, again, always be changed. But for the time being this is the hand we're dealt, and this argument has reached a point I think all feel is excessive.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:28, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have already laid out the reasons why I believe this is OR.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 19:21, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
And we've all read them. This however is starting to feel less like you're interested in a discussion and more with WP:BLUDGEON|bludgeoning]] the matter, especially when you completely disregard what others are saying.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 19:31, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Considering the lack of consensus among good sources, I think we should leave it out of the article for now. If we can't rely on a source to back a claim, it's original research, and could result in citogenesis. Oktayey (talk) 19:36, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like that disregards the problem that we have a character that is a non-player character with they/them pronouns directed to them. If there was a similar instance of a player character showing their own autonomy and treated as separate from the player's control using they/them I think there could be some ground, but that's a significant enough factor. This would be like arguing the Dark Urge shouldn't count as male even though his corpse appears in the game if you don't select him, just because you can choose the character's gender at origin.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 19:52, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please pardon me, but I don't see how this excuses the need to rely on sources to back our claims. Oktayey (talk) 20:03, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
But we do have sources. You haven't presented any information or reasoning to disregard ScreenRant (which was written by an author that has worked at multiple publications), TheGamer, and Gayming Mag. These sources do fact check as established by WP:VG/S and the reliable sources noticeboard and related talk pages. This is further coupled with scholarly papers that would have also had to have seen fact checking and peer reviews for their sourcing and statements. Now your argument has been there is a "particular slant", which is not our job to ascertain as wikipedia editors in this regard: WP:TRUTH and WP:NOT should be your go to's.
The tl;dr of all this: you have multiple reliable secondary sources stating this as fact, and none stating that they are not non-binary. Thus we go with the sources as we are presented them.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:26, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, you have two sources (both churnalism outfits of "questionable"/"situational" reliability according to WP:VG/s, one of which outright misrepresents its source), because Gayming Mag doesn't actually say anything about Kris' gender - it says Frisk is non-binary, but that's a separate matter. On the side of "Kris' gender is unstated" we have a different TheGamer article, and RPGFan article, and I'll take the latter as a source over any Valnet outfit.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 20:45, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
??? TheGamer source says there exists debate, but also argues that Kris is non-binary. Saying there is debate does not lend itself to suggest both sides of a debate are equal. The RPGFan source also doesn't say that they are a self insert, just that they have no canonical gender. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 21:08, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i'll add while looking for a couple more sources that eldomtom has also spent no small amount of time trying to argue for legends of localization, which is also about undertale (in this case, about its localization made well into its lifespan, as opposed to the original language version of the next game), so even the one argument i actually agree with can be safely disregarded as hypocrisy consarn (grave) (obituary) 21:11, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I've never argued Legends of Localisation should used as a source in the article.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 22:28, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
then why were you bringing it up in the first place, if not for deliberately wasting other people's time?
and regardless of what your answer to the above question is, why would you first bring it up as an answer to the question "What official sources say [Kris's] gender is 'unstated'?"? it's about the wrong topic in at least four levels (character, game, language, how long it's been since toby started learning japanese) consarn (grave) (obituary) 22:45, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The article certainly doesn't outright say Kris is non-binary. It's very badly phrased... --Eldomtom2 (talk) 22:32, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
:/ Dawg, they're in a list of non-binary characters. That's exactly as explicit as saying "Kris is non-binary". Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:50, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Earlier, another editor referred to your first two sources as 'churnalism', and while that choice of words may not be very proper, I'm inclined to agree with their point. This type of content's quality is suspect, often being cranked out in great quantities, aiming to attract maximum engagement with minimal effort.
As for assessing bias, I'm not sure where you're coming from. I think WP:BIASED pretty clearly outlines editors' role in determining a source's bias, and how that bias affects how it may be used. Oktayey (talk) 20:53, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
While I will concede the mistake with Gayming Mag, you're misusing the term churnalism there; you should probably familiarize yourself with the term before you grab it. Churnalism is separate from fact checking, and you're trying to imply the website, let alone at least one established journalist, are stating incorrect facts knowingly; there's been enough discussion about these sites to illustrate that's not the case. Additionally, TheGamer source you grabbed there also states "Whether you project masculinity or femininity onto Kris, it will always work because they aren’t meant to conform to any one side of the binary", which is the definition of non-binary. Now, while RPGFan is an outlier in this regard, it's also a brief statement while the others are giving more thorough regards towards them.
Now regarding Oktayey's statements, you're asserting a source has bias, but no proof of bias or illustrating there is any bias that would cause them to state basic facts about a character incorrectly. If you had a history of other publications or journalists calling them out I could certainly see a case, but that's not here, and would also be a case to bring up on WT:VG/S if you did (case in point the discussions regarding sites like Bounding Into Comics there.
Is this is the best you all have as a counterargument at most you could add is a bit that they're enby, but there's been some debate in the reception section. It wouldn't justify negating them being non-binary entirely.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:58, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's nitpicking to focus on the term "churnalism" when WP:VG/S explicitly calls them content farms.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 22:28, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
closer cross-referencing of the sources kfm presented will reveal that they do meet vg/s's conditions for reliability (where they're otherwise considered "situational" and not "unreliable), so nah
even ignoring those, assuming they're actual poop from a butt, of the kind that would lower one's social credit score just from exposure, the two articles you presented both argue that kris is at the very least "not binary", which doesn't sound explicitly male or female to me consarn (grave) (obituary) 22:34, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Eldomtom2, the issue is that you're arguing against them being used for verifiability as a content farm, when the issue has been to not use them for notability, which is not a concern here. Even at a Featured Article level, TheGamer and ScreenRant have both been used, especially if one can show further credentials on the part of the author of the article. Your argument holds no water.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:37, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@consarn The TheGamer article in question definitely isn't saying "Kris is non-binary, any argument to the contrary is invalid", but far more importantly the RPGFan article explicitly and clearly states "Tangentially, a special mention has to go to the player characters, Frisk and sequel Deltarune‘s new hero Kris, who have no official gender – players can project themselves if they please (and many do), and the game only references them as they; something I especially enjoyed and I truly wish more games with androgynous/silent heroes would do." (emphasis mine). @Kung Fu Man, WP:VG/S explicitly states that Valnet sources are of "questionable reliability". I'd also like to see a case where Valnet sources were treated as better than non-Valnet reliable sources, which is what is being proposed here.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 23:01, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I feel one barely-there comment carries less weight over several paragraphs discussing the subject, especially when one, again, is written by an author that has worked on other sites. We're not playing Schrodinger's Verifiability, where a source is reliable or not depending on how you feel on it. If you have more sources present them, otherwise this is silly. WP:TRUTH and WP:NOT still very much apply here.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 23:14, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how Tom is invoking WP:TRUTH. He isn't trying to argue that the article must be changed to match what he believes to be true; he's arguing that certain sources are unsuitable for backing this claim. Oktayey (talk) 23:27, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing to indicate that they couldn't be used to support a basic fact about a character like their gender, when we, again, can use these sources at a FA-level to do such.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 23:30, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, I'm kind of baffled that you see TheGamer as supporting your stance here. If we had a list of the best Nintendo 64 games, we would take on faith that all entries are N64 games. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:19, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
this runs into a problem when you fail to provide sources that actually argue towards kris not being nb. even the ones you've provided support the idea and only think it's up for player interpretation. there is, however, a shining light in that there are sources that argue against this argument
...with the slight caveat that by "this argument", i mean the "kris's gender is up for player interpretation" one, not the "kris is/isn't nb" one. whoops? consarn (grave) (obituary) 23:19, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, because Google News sucks, here's also The Pink News stating, rather plainly, Kris is nonbinary. Ed Nightingale, the author, also has a long journalistic pedigree.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 23:21, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I despise Google News so dearly. Well, with that, I don't think there should be any issue since Pink News is pretty obliquely a reliable source, particularly on LGBT topics. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:23, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Kung Fu Man, the article "written by an author that has worked on other sites" is by far the worse source, because it outright lies about what a primary source says! And let's be clear, by "several paragraphs discussing the subject" we're talking about four paragraphs total in listicles that aren't even doing surface-level analysis. Also, I'm going through the entire list of websites on WP:VG/S to see if they say anything about Kris' gender, and if a passing mention in a reliable source is enough to establish a character's gender, boy oh boy do I have a surprise for you... @consarn, The RPGFan article explicitly states that Kris' gender is up to interpretation, ergo Kris (from the perspective of that source) is "not nonbinary" for Wikipedia's purposes (we are not going around labelling every single character who's gender is up to interpretation as nonbinary).--Eldomtom2 (talk) 23:32, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We are not "labeling every character whose gender is up for interpretation" as non-binary, we're labeling Kris, a character with multiple sources stating they are, as non-binary. You are making it really difficult to assume good faith ony our part the longer this goes on.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 23:34, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, what did Pink News lie about?... - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:36, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I was talking about the ScreenRant article, not the Pink News one. The ScreenRant article lies because it transforms a Reddit post showing that Toby uses they/them pronouns for Kris into "Toby Fox himself confirmed that Kris is canonically nonbinary".--Eldomtom2 (talk) 23:40, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
this is unrelated to the discussion part of the discussion, but try using the visual editor for pings
that aside, i'll answer to my part: other sources argue against this claim by stating that kris is their own character. this conflicts with the argument that some of their traits are up for player interpretation, but the opposite isn't true. that is, sources that say kris is up for interpretation never out-and-out eliminate the possibility of kris being nb
this whole thing, from the repeated "but what if no?"-age to just accusing sources of lying without elaboration until actively pressed further (and even then, what was the book thing about!?), is bordering on active stonewalling, and i don't think it would be entirely unreasonable to address it as trolling at this point. either way, can yall hold up a minute, i'm workng on an rfc for this :flushedspamton: consarn (grave) (obituary) 23:44, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This feels kind of like circular logic to me. "If I was right [the character's gender is up to interpretation], it'd be crazy to do the thing that I was opposed to! [label the character as nonbinary]". The "I was right" part comes at the end of any real argument, not the beginning. threeqc (talk) 00:47, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That isn't a lie, that's an interpretation of their intent. You may disagree with the motives behind him correcting pronoun use, but calling it a lie is not reasonable. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:43, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

rfc opened, by the way (just in case anyone was only going by notifs) consarn (grave) (obituary) 00:17, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
theyre actually pretty good now, but if I remember right the summaries felt tangentially related at best to the actual subject of the article lol GeekTheSiren (talk) 18:19, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2025

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Change the wiki link to Gerson Boom in chapter 4’s plot summary from just Gerson Boom (redlinked) to Characters of Undertale and Deltarune#Gerson Boom (not redlinked). It can still show just "Gerson Boom", but redlink removal should probably be important for a wiki article. If my change doesn't get implemented, then probably make "Gerson Boom" just redirect to that page. 2A0A:EF40:7D0:8C01:459E:3C31:98A3:CA61 (talk) 14:29, 25 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Done - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:08, 25 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

inobjective chapter summaries

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not too big an issue, especially since it's only been a month since chapters 3 and 4 have been released, but I feel the descriptions of Kris' role in these chapters need to be revised GeekTheSiren (talk) 06:17, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't really followed how the section has changed since J originally wrote it, but can you elaborate further? Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:08, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

rfc on kris's gender

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NO CONSENSUS
This RFC won't result in a productive close, so I am closing it to anticipate the inevitable. Re-create the RFC with a short query with multiple options representing each viewpoint. Provide a "Vote" and "Discussion" subheading to delineate the two.

No restrictions on time before reopening but I suggest agreeing on the prompt and clear options. — ImaginesTigers (talk) 00:40, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

regarding how sources (official or otherwise) handle the topic, how should the article describe kris's gender? this rfc is "split" into two main parts:

  • general description (stating they're non-binary, stating that certain sources describe them as non-binary, stating that "they/them" is used for kris, etc.)
  • how this will reflect in the infobox (non-binary, ambiguous, no official gender, unknown, no gender field, etc.)

consarn (grave) (obituary) 00:09, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As someone not previously involved in this article, it's a bit difficult to understand what the dispute is with this. Sergecross73 msg me 00:48, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
the dispute is over whether characters and developers exclusively using "they/them" to refer to kris (in one case, resident lead dev toby fox even corrected someone accidentally referring to kris as male), how they're never explicitly projected as male or female in-game (in options that imply gender like what funny medical hat they wear when taking care of a computer virus, they can just do both lmao), and how sources tend to reflect it (some say they're nb, some doubt it, some say it's up to player interpretation, some say it's not up to player interpretation), would warrant directly referring to them as non-binary consarn (grave) (obituary) 01:01, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I take the position that interpreting that section of the livestream as a correction would be OR, and even if it wasn't interpreting the intent of that correction would also be OR.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 01:03, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I've never really understood that particular reading of the events. HOWEVER. At the very least, the co-presenters started using gendered pronouns, and then felt the need to correct themselves. threeqc (talk) 13:44, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think it would be best if there was a summary of each side, as well as featuring sources cited by both sides. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 00:58, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The article should state that Kris' gender is not explicitly stated, that they/them pronouns are used for them, and that some critics describe them as non-binary, without stating "Kris is nonbinary" in wikivoice or in the infobox/categories. The facts of this case are 1) Kris is solely referred to by they/them pronouns, 2) There have been no other statements or hints on Kris' gender either in the game or out of it, 3) other characters referred to by they/them pronouns in games by the same developer have been officially stated to have "an unstated gender". There's also some more OR-y stuff like "why hasn't a single member of the dev team ever clarified the situation or answered questions on the topic".
I submit that there is no consensus, especially in cases like this where there is evidence this assumption may be mistaken, that declaring characters referred with they/them pronouns as non-binary in the absence of other evidence does not constitute original research.
I propose that the article states something like "Kris' gender, which is not explicitly stated in the game, has been interpreted by many fans and critics as non-binary due to them solely being referred to with they/them pronouns.". I don't see how that can be disagreed with - everything it says is true and it doesn't bias the reader towards one option. I am extremely concerned about citiogenesis here because this is not a topic where reliable sources have written much - for sources, we have two situational sources (according to WP:VG/S) calling Kris non-binary (1 2), one situational source placing Kris in a list of non-binary characters while also acknowledging it's up for debate (1), two situational sources describing :Kris as male (1 2), one reliable source (again according to WP:VG/S) saying that Kris' gender is up to interpretation (1), and one reliable source calling Kris male (1) (!!!). There's also this student magazine (but with an editorial team) that calls Kris gender-neutral: 1 :That's all there is on the topic. So I think we should be extremely careful, avoid relying on content farms undoubtedly using social media and fan intepretations as their main source, and just write what the game itself says on Kris' gender - which is precisely nothing except referring to them with they/them pronouns, and that can't be enough to call a character non-binary in Wikivoice. The only position Wikipedia can sensibly take is "we don't have enough information to say what Kris' gender is".--Eldomtom2 (talk) 01:02, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Can you two please create separate sections? I find that the assessment of the facts of the case is very limited in a way that favors your desired outcome. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 01:13, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Separate sections for what, exactly? I wasn't intending to write a neutral assessment of the facts - that was meant to be my full opinion and it only appeared directly below your comment by accident.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 01:21, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There are exactly two sources currently in the article suggesting that Kris is non-binary.
  • The first is a scientific paper from the Journal of Data Mining and Digital Humanities. This source mentions Kris once, and does so in an incredibly off-hand fashion, in the conclusion, within a study focusing on a different topic. I would be surprised if peer reviewers cared to give it even a single thought. This is obviously not a good source.
  • The second is a Screen Rant article. Screen Rant is listed on the perennial sources list as being potentially unreliable, so I would not rely on it in any matter subject to controversy.
There are also a few more listed in this conversation.
  • One from thegamer.com. This, notably, does not mention Deltarune, so I assume it is here by mistake.
  • One from thepinknews.com. This website is listed on the perennial sources list as being generally reliable except for people's sexuality, so it's not a good source here.
  • One from gaymingmag.com. This website reminds me a PinkNews except it's smaller. Probably still not a good source. Also, there's obvious bias issues.
Let's move onto what is currently within the article. Right after the assertion that Kris is non-binary is a footnote that includes a justification:

Kris is referred to by they/them pronouns throughout the game. Kris's gender is not stated in the game and there are no allusions or statements in the game regarding their gender expression, including whether they have masculine, feminine, or androgynous attributes. As such, non-binary is used here for brevity and clarity.

Ironically, this does not make the article any clearer. The average reader will not interpret the term "non-binary" to be a shorthand for an unknown identity, but as the concrete presence of one. Redefining common terms in a footnote is not acceptable behaviour.
One may also argue that there are sources suggesting that Kris is non-binary, such as their own personal interpretations of the game or the fact that Toby Fox once corrected Kris's pronouns in a stream. Both of these are obvious WP:SYNTH violations.
I think it's quite clear that Kris being non-binary is unsourced, and should therefore not be asserted in the article.
As for the infobox, there is no requirement for the gender field to be present. It should be removed entirely, because we lack the necessary information to fill it.
As for pronouns, they/them should be used in order to conform to the general coverage style and because using any other pronouns would be an unsourced assertion of Kris's gender. Dieknon (talk) 01:40, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Both TheGamer sources say Deltarune
  2. The advisory for Pink News is very obviously only talking about real people due to BLP issues.
  3. There is not consensus that an LGBT website becomes less reliable for discussion of LGBT topics. In fact, it's the opposite, as a reliable source that covers LGBT topics is considered to have expertise on the subject. Claiming that LGBT writers are inherently biased is a concerning one, as it suggests, without evidence, that LGBT authors would ignore evidence or create misleading statements. Frankly, lacking evidence, defaulting to LGBT sources having an obvious bias in LGBT setting is an extremely concerning thing to post. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 02:30, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    >Frankly, lacking evidence, defaulting to LGBT sources having an obvious bias in LGBT setting is an extremely concerning thing to post.
    I don't think so. I think it's expected for people to be biased in favor of a bloc they identify with. Oktayey (talk) 04:42, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It's extremely inappropriate behavior to be accusing LGBT people as being inherently biased towards bad or false info on the topic. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 07:10, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    1. No they don't. The only mention of "Deltarune" on the website is in the comment section, which is not subject to editorial oversight. Perhaps this is a technical issue and so we aren't reading the same article. But I've also tried accessing the website from a few proxies, and I've been served the same content. If it is a technical issue and the source is displaying differently to different readers, that would not inspire confidence in me regarding its reliability.
    2. If PinkNews's editorial board doesn't properly fact-check the sexualities of real people, then why would we expect them to fact-check the sexualities of fictional ones?
    3. I believe you'll be pleased to find that I've found an avenue of argumentation that makes the reliability of gaymingmag.com a moot point. The source does not claim that Kris is non-binary. It actually makes that claim about Frisk, from Undertale. We have both misread the source.
    Dieknon (talk) 12:35, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    i'm not implying that you really don't want to make that argument in point 2 without providing evidence... i'm stating as fact that you really don't want to make that argument in point 2 without providing evidence. this is to say, please elaborate, or it can be used as evidence of discrimination consarn (grave) (obituary) 13:59, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    My bigger point on gaymingmag was that you wrote something distasteful and offensive, and that you should probably reflect on that in the future. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:51, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • My opinion - while it's heavily likely that Kris was intended to be non-binary, it's not possible to know for certain. Toby Fox could simply have wanted to avoid the effort of needing every piece of dialog concerning Kris to be able to swap between "he" and "she". For this reason, unless it's explicitly confirmed by Fox, the article should simply say that Kris has no defined gender, not make the logical leap that Kris is "non-binary". ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 02:20, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I added the note for "non-binary" at the time because I thought it was a reasonable compromise, but given the lack of consensus here, I think just not stating gender in the article at all is acceptable, given it's not stated in the game, while also including comparisons of how different authors and audiences have interpreted their gender identity, such as has been brought up in this talk page and in the article's Reception section. However, there should at least be some emphasis that Kris uses they/them pronouns, given that's really the only evidence in the canon. I don't think clarifying that "Kris has no stated gender" in the lead would work in lieu of not stating it at all or referring to Kris as non-binary. Pave Paws (talk) 02:23, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not particularly knowledgeable about this fictional character (even if I've edited this article for a little) but I've been called to participate in this RfC so I'm commenting anyway:
I'd say keep maintaining the use of singular they/them pronouns throughout the whole article, but do not claim Kris as non-binary. Dieknon is correct to say that "the average reader will not interpret the term "non-binary" to be a shorthand for an unknown identity". There is no explicit claim from the creator Toby Fox. I also second Pave Paws's remark that "just not stating gender in the article at all is acceptable, given it's not stated in the game", otherwise explicitly stating that their gender isn't known also fits. Kyleroo (talk) 08:45, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Going to add my two cents, but I feel it's important to make a distinction that the character in question is presented as a NPC that the player controls at times, and actively has their own behavior and agendas in the scope of the game's story. So to say the character is a self insert, when they are very different from Frisk in that regard, is questionable and makes the use of one of the below sources for Undertale even more questionable. Additionally maybe I'm just an old man...but I don't see the big issue with defining a character as non-binary when the creator is specifically using they/them towards the character, multiple articles describe the character as non-binary and discuss them in that capacity, and we wouldn't raise this same level of fuss over a traditionally male or female character. I feel too Toby Fox's involvement with his community should also be considered, as if anyone would jump in to say contrary it would be him.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 09:18, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the "Kris is not a self-insert" thing is important here, because it assumes that characters can't have an unstated gender unless they're a self-insert, which I disagree with. I'm also not sure what you mean when you say "Toby Fox's involvement with his community should also be considered, as if anyone would jump in to say contrary it would be him" - are you saying this is evidence for Kris being non-binary?--Eldomtom2 (talk) 13:29, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm saying it could be seen as supportive given he's normally quite vocal on the behind the scenes regarding his work. Hell you can see that in Megalovania.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:10, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Personally I think it's actually the opposite, but it's OR either way.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 14:30, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
From WP:OR: "This policy does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content and sources, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards." Please stop replying with mentions of OR, the only thing that matters is if any research done in this discussion is added to the article, and neither side is aiming to do that. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:43, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

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I've collected sources used in the discussion by both sides to make their case. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 01:34, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I've included this here in order to avoid dispute over neutrality of placement:
  • In Deltarune, the character Kris is exclusively referred to using they/them pronouns, including by characters who know their gender, such as their mother. They are also seen wearing men and women's clothing at various times. It is argued that these aspects point to Kris being non-binary.

Sources favoring "Kris is non-binary"

  • [1] Published paper on machine translation. Mentions Kris is non-binary once in passing. Concerns about it being cited only eight times. None of the citations appear to cite it for its claims on Kris' gender.
  • [2] Lists Kris being non-binary as a fact about the character, claiming that this Reddit post shows Toby Fox confirming it. Concerns raised over whether Screen Rant, as a website frequently described as a content farm, holds weight in this discussion. Screen Rant is considered a "situational source" by WP:VG/S.
  • [3] Lists Kris as an example of a non-binary character. Acknowledges the existence of a debate around it, but disagrees with the premise of those who disagree with the assessment. Concerns raised over whether TheGamer, as a content farm, holds weight in this discussion. TheGamer is considered a "situational source" by WP:VG/S.
  • [4] Another TheGamer source that lists the character specifically, though acknowledges there is some debate.
  • [5] Article identifies the protagonist of Undertale, Frisk, as a non-binary character. Frisk and Kris are considered non-binary by people for similar reasons, and it has been argued that, despite not being about Kris, Kris meets the standard that gaymingmag used to determine Frisk to be non-binary.
  • [6] Refers to "the lead character" as non-binary between two sentences about Undertale. Whether this refers to Kris or Frisk is debatable, but like the above source, both characters are viewed as non-binary for the same reasons.
  • [7] Analyses video game translations. As part of the study, a "corpus with games that included female leading characters as well as transgender, non-binary, and non-sexualised characters." that included Deltarune was created. Deltarune is mentioned in a list of games that have "at least one non-binary character". Examples of how a French Deltarune fan translation avoided gendered language are provided. Kris is not explicitly stated to be nonbinary.
  • [8] An undergraduate thesis that surveyed 572 Reddit users. One of the questions asked respondents to name any transgender/nonbinary characters in video games they knew of. 18 named Kris. It has been cited by a dissertation and a thesis. Neither appears to cite it for its claims on Kris' gender.
  • [9] A video of a stream hosted by Fangamer staff, which Toby Fox collaborates with to make merchandise. In it, one of the people uses he/him for Kris, only to be corrected to they/them by Toby Fox (who is speaking via text to speech).

Sources countering/not affirming "Kris is non-binary"

  • [10] Article states that Kris has no canon gender, and that players can "project themselves if they please." RPGFan is considered a reliable source by WP:VG/S.
  • [11] In this book on Undertale by translator Clyde Mandelin, made in close association with Toby Fox and with access to the notes he provided the translators, he describes multiple characters, including Frisk, who use they/them pronouns as having an "unknown" or "unstated" gender. This is used to show that merely using they/them pronouns does not, by itself, demonstrate that the intent was to create a non-binary character.
  • [12] Describes Kris as male in passing. CG Magazine is considered a "situational source" by WP:VG/S.
  • [13] Describes Kris as male in passing. Dexerto is considered a "situational source" by WP:VG/S, where it is regarded as a tabloid and users are generally encouraged to find a better source.
  • [14] Describes Kris as male in passing. VG247 is considered a reliable source by WP:VG/S.

Comments on sources

Several points here.
  • You do not mention that the primary concern about the paper is that it is not about analysing gender in video games - it is about how machine translation handles gender and assumes (without providing sources or evidence) that Kris is non-binary for its examination of how machine translators translated Deltarune's dialogue.
  • The ScreenRant article does not use the Chapter 2 announcement livestream as its source, it uses this Reddit post showing times when Toby has used they/them pronouns for Kris, which was posted months before the livestream.
  • Should make it explicit that the Clyde Mandelin book is about Undertale, a game by the same developer as Deltarune, and was made in close collaboration with Toby Fox using notes he gave the translation team.
  • You are missing the CG Magazine, Dexerto, and VG247 sources I link in my comment on this RfC. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 01:47, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
you could add them yourself, as this is meant to be a list of sources consarn (grave) (obituary) 01:53, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I made the changes, though I'll let you add the Dexerto, VG247, and CGMagazine sources if you like, as I think it'd be incredibly silly to do so. The logical conclusion of sources using 'he' to refer to Kris is because of a bias that defaults ambiguity to male. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 01:57, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Changes made. On sources calling Kris male, well, saying "that's due to bias" is OR, isn't it?--Eldomtom2 (talk) 02:04, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
OR does not apply to talk page discussions. Editors can intuit whether such a claim is valid or not. From the summary of WP:OR: "Wikipedia does not publish original thought. All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles must not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves." If we were to dismiss the three sources, it would not constitute OR because we are not publishing anything in doing so. Furthermore, if we cited every source using they/them pronouns, Toby Fox included, a few sources using he/him would be so outnumbered as to appear mistaken. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 02:10, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
also not or is analyzing sources, finding that the majority states (and in certain cases, demonstrates) that kris exclusively uses "they/them", and the literal one concrete thing in the game that can be used to imply their gender only really eliminates the possibility of kris being male, and detemining that those sources are objectively mistaken consarn (grave) (obituary) 02:53, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
People who go by he/they pronouns exist, you know. And since the whole point of the singular they is that it can be applied to everyone, saying "if they're exclusively referred to with they/them pronouns, they're not male or female" (saying that Kris uses they/them pronouns is OR in my opinion) would be a policy that at best would be an invitation for massive amounts of OR.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 13:35, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
a little late to note, what with the suggestion of stopping having been made and all, but "he/they" still falls within "non-binary", as it's not explicitly and exclusively male or female, and instances of people referring to kris as male have demonstrably been made in passing and in mistake consarn (grave) (obituary) 16:28, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Is the Fangamer stream really usable here? It's a primary source, so its implication is subjective. For instance, it sounds to me like Toby was just continuing the other host's joke, not trying to correct him. I feel like it should be struck from the list. Oktayey (talk) 04:52, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand how it would be a continuation of t he joke Cukie Gherkin (talk) 04:53, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Could the 8th source (the Fangamer video) actually classify as a source for an explicit non-binary statement? There's no such statement, just a simple pronoun correction by Toby Fox. Even the uploader edited the video description to state that "we do not know if he is defending Kris's identity as nonbinary, or just maintaining "gender ambiguity"" (which unfortunately appears to be added due to discrimination). Kyleroo (talk) 08:52, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I would disagree that either the CG Magazine or VG247 sources describe Kris as male, in passing or otherwise. Both use he/him pronouns to discuss Kris, but pronoun use != gender identity – that's the whole reason there's a dispute about Kris' gender in the first place! I'd also disagree that it's debatable whether the PinkNews source is discussing Kris when it says that "the lead character is non-binary": it's quite clearly discussing Undertale, not Deltarune. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 11:10, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
And this article in The Gamer, described as lists Kris as an example of a non-binary character, as far as I can tell does not mention Deltarune/Kris at all, and says of Undertale: You take on the role of Frisk, whose personality and gender are purposefully left ambiguous so you can project your preferences onto the character. Along with their neutral character design, Frisk is also addressed with they/them pronouns throughout the game, maintaining the gender-neutral identity. [my emphasis]. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 11:15, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I'll collect my thoughts here.
  • The source from thegamer.com does not make any claim about Kris. They instead make a claim about Frisk from Undertale. User:Cukie Gherkin appears to have misread this source.
  • The source from gaymingmag.com does not make any claim about Kris. Again, they only say that about Frisk.
  • The PinkNews source probably does not make a claim about Kris, but yet again, Frisk. Trying to interpret the source any further would be original research in my opinion.
  • Toby Fox enforcing use of they/them is not a claim that Kris is non-binary. Such extrapolations are original research, similar to trying to extrapolate from the game itself.
  • The first paper only mentions Kris in passing, in a paper covering a somewhat distant topic, so it probably wasn't looked at by peer reviewers very critically.
  • The second paper yet again covers a distant topic. Kris is useful for the study, but not because any claim that they're non-binary, but due to the game's use of they/them. Again, I doubt the peer reviewers gave it much thought.
  • The third paper is a thesis, and we should therefore apply care as per WP:THESIS. While cited by other papers, these are also theses. After applying some amount of care, I have found that the source also claims that Frisk is non-binary, which I would like to say is a fringe opinion, but considering the first 3 sources here, I'm starting to become uncertain. Though the fact that Frisk appears to have more sources claiming they're non-binary than Kris doesn't inspire much confidence in me regarding the verifiability of Kris being non-binary, because the consensus regarding Frisk not being verifiably non-binary seems to be pretty rock-solid on Wikipedia.
Dieknon (talk) 13:45, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay I'm going to be frank, @Eldomtom2: what you're doing with those last few edits on the sourcing is counter-intuitive and hard to take in good faith. It's one thing when I added a note to dexerto that its recommended against use as a tabloid, it's a full other when you start framing sources from how you interpret them rather than discuss them down here.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:57, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe my changes clarify how the sources discuss Kris, and add some potential concerns I have, which are clearly marked as concerns and are not phrased in an overly subjective manner.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 15:03, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those 'potential concerns' and 'clarifications' should have been discussed down here as they're clearly controversial. That's the point of this section, not a tug of war in the actual sources list itself.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:08, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Can you explain how the edits are disruptive? I pinged as many contributors to the page as I could to ensure as many people knew about the RfC as possible. I didn't look at what edits they made and didn't intend to engage in canvassing.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 17:24, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
you should have looked at their contribs, or preferably let watchlist notifs from the three places i notified do the job consarn (grave) (obituary) 17:29, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway for a change that clearly is controversial I propose changing the section on the Fangamer livestream to read: "A clip from a livestream hosted by Fangamer staff, with Toby Fox joining via text-to-speech. Fangamer is a company that produces licensed video game merchandise, including Deltarune merchandise. The livestream was officially endorsed by Toby Fox, featured him, and was used to announce the release date of Deltarune Chapter 2. Some people interpret the clip as featuring an explicit correction of Kris' pronouns. Others argue that 1) it's original research to consider this definitely Toby correcting the streamers on Kris' pronouns, and 2) even if it was definitely a correction, it's original research to declare Toby's motivation for the correction to be Kris being non-binary, since there are other potential explanations such as Kris having no canonical gender." This way the arguments against the clip being a source for Kris being non-binary are included as well.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 15:17, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Uninvolved note

[edit]

As a non-involved party, I'd recommend re-doing this RFC entirely. The original RFC didn't do a good job of outlining the scenario or possible solutions, and the insanely long walks of text that have been added are just going to scare away 90% of potential outside participants. No one's going to do 20 minutes of homework before contributing to an issue they're not even involved with. As is, this is just going to be the same parties arguing with each other indefinitely.

Please consider:

  1. Outlining the issue briefly.
  2. Outlining a few likely intended outcome scenarios.
  3. Leaving a brief outline of your stance.
  4. Waiting patiently for others to comment.
  5. Not WP:CANVASSing. Sergecross73 msg me 16:11, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
then i'll leave that to someone else, just in case
how does closing this and discouraging reopening for about a week to let people rest sound? consarn (grave) (obituary) 16:24, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't be opposed to that if the disputed content in the article were to be stricken in the mean time; I think citogenesis is a real concern, and leaving a dubious claim in the article for longer than necessary is risky. Oktayey (talk) 17:17, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No idea where it falls with this specific dispute, but generally WP:NOCONSENSUS is what should be followed. Sergecross73 msg me 19:18, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOCON doesn't dictate what should happen, and as this 'RFC' didn't actually propose any specific changes, there isn't anything for us to have a consensus about (or not!) JeffUK 10:51, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Per this point, and the closure notice, I think the proposal in the RFC discussion by @Eldomtom2
"The article should state that Kris' gender is not explicitly stated, that they/them pronouns are used for them, and that some critics describe them as non-binary, without stating "Kris is nonbinary" in wikivoice or in the infobox/categories."
Seems like a better place to start an RFC, it's a fully formed proposal for a specific change. JeffUK 10:57, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
shouldn't this part of the discussion have been closed as well? we're just gonna have another exhausting mess... consarn (grave) (obituary) 11:02, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I left this open as a place for participants to discuss a new prompt. I have started a selection below for this purpose so I can close this section. In this section people should not be forensically analysing sources, but agreeing on a fair and neutral prompt. — ImaginesTigers (talk) 11:15, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Advice from closer

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To resolve this dispute, clearly communicate what it is and the outcomes. Regarding how sources (official or otherwise). Sources are the fuel that drives Wikipedia; it doesn't form part of an RFC prompt. It forms part of an editor's position. The RFC should clearly articulately the conflict and the available options. It should have a "Votes" section and a "Discussion" heading. I'll provide an example, although remember that of the problem here is that I don't understand what is contested beyond the infobox. I expect participants to work on an actual prompt with options together.

Extended content
* e.g., "How should Kris (Deltarune)'s gender be described?
a) Use he/his in the main body and include "Male" as gender in the infobox.
b) Use he/his in the main body and include do not include gender in the infobox.
c) Use they/their in the main body and include "non-binary" gender in the infobox.
d) Use they/their in the main body and do not include gender in the infobox.
  • Beyond this, each editor should articulate what they believe in their vote. If you have a response for another editor's view point, it is strongly advised you do other a "Discussion" tab—otherwise, it becomes very hard for any outsider to understand.

For example: Support Option X: Reasons are 1, 2, and 3. I am not convinced by Y analysis because of A and B.
No one is likely to convince another participant of their viewpoint during an RFC—that's why RFCs exist. If you have a concise rebuttal, it can be provided briefly in the vote section. Otherwise, it is advisable to keep the focus on your argument and not engage in a back-and-forth.
If an RFC doesn't have !votes, it places an unfair burden of work on the closer to comprehensively understand each editor's position and increases the chance of a bad close. — ImaginesTigers (talk) 11:14, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I propose the RFC Prompt should be:
How should Kris (Deltarune)'s gender be described in the article:
1. In the lead paragraph
a) "They are a non-binary human teenager..." (The current state of the article pre-RFC)
b) Remove 'are a non-binary' and separately state in the lead that "their gender is not explicitly defined in the game, they are referred to by the author by they/them pronouns and recognised as non-binary by some sources" (or similar wording to that effect)
b) Do not explicitly refer to their gender in the lead paragraph
2. In the infobox.
a) Non-binary
b) Unknown (or similar)
c) Do not include 'Gender' in the infobox.
JeffUK 12:21, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Suggested tweaks in the collapsed box below – eg., fix lettering, make "choose-your-own-option" to C, and replace assumption of knowledge with a clear proposal, etc.
It's important not to say things like "the current state". It should be a clear option representing the proposed state. Given that you mention "the current state", I have clearly articulated the current state. — ImaginesTigers (talk)
Extended content
1. In the lead paragraph
a) State They are a non-binary human teenager with an explanatory footnote elaborating: Kris is referred to by they/them pronouns throughout the game. Kris's gender is not stated in the game and there are no allusions or statements in the game regarding their gender expression, including whether they have masculine, feminine, or androgynous attributes. As such, non-binary is used here for brevity and clarity.
b) Do not refer to Kris' gender.
c) State: Their gender is not explicitly defined in the game, they are referred to by the author by they/them pronouns and recognised as non-binary by some sources (or similar). Provide an alternative.
2. In the infobox.
a) Non-binary
b) Do not include 'Gender' in the infobox.
c) Unknown (or similar). Provide an alternative.
For the avoidance of doubt, I will not be participating in this RFC – I want to make sure this isn't going on following my death and hopefully cut through the disagreements. I think my revision above is more likely to result in a productive close instead of a fight over the RFC itself. — ImaginesTigers (talk) 12:46, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think the RfC should ask how sections of the article other than the lede and infobox should refer to Kris' gender, since in the current version of the article there is also mention of it in the "Concept and creation" and "Reception" sections.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 13:29, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Those claims should be attributed to the sources in line and I would recommend someone boldly do that... but a prompt to remove sourced information is not really normal for an RFC. I think the prompt you're asking for is: Should the statements attributed by references X, Y, and Z be removed? You can get a significantly faster outcome on that at WP:RSN without waiting weeks for an RFC closure. If you want me to add it to my draft above, sure, but from a procedural perspective it's likely to result in a very straightforward "No" outcome. — ImaginesTigers (talk) 15:03, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Taking some initiative, I decided to move the discussion to WT:VGCHAR as I feel some of the concerns were that this could apply to multiple characters, and it helps to define guidelines for such in a more concrete manner: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games/Video_game_characters#Defining_"non-binary"_in_regards_to_undisclosed_gender_video_game_characters. To clarify this isn't to circumvent the RfC, but some of the concerns such as brought up by Eldomtom2, namely that this reasoning could apply to other characters and become a problem, make it more a MOS issue too than just bound to one character. I do agree too defining where to mention this material, and how, should also be a later aspect of the discussion i.e. the infobox or not, but figuring out how we even define this has to be the first step to avoid getting the cart before the horse.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:23, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That discussion is already wandering into a similar state to the discussion above, I think the RFC to discuss the specific content of this article is more likely to be useful. @Consarn @Cukie Gherkin do you have any feedback on the proposed RFC wording? JeffUK 20:19, 8 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i do, and i would have given it a couple hours ago, but i got an internet outage for like 6 hours lol consarn (grave) (obituary) 20:22, 8 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@JeffUK: I feel everything's going pretty fine with the side discussion thus far, a few tangents but mostly sticking to one thread. It's helpful too that this revealed the List of fictional non-binary characters article has rules for inclusion that are similar to the ones proposed in the WT:VGCHAR thread, which further makes me believe this is better handled as an encompassing discussion than just "is Kris non-binary" and helps show a more solid consensus.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 07:39, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Kris' gender, again

[edit]

So a month after the failed RfC I think it might be time to think about trying to do a proper RfC this time. A consensus clearly hasn't been reached, and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games/Video_game_characters#Defining_"non-binary"_in_regards_to_undisclosed_gender_video_game_characters fizzled out without managing to get consensus on a policy. Eldomtom2 (talk) 20:12, 2 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it fizzled, I think we reached a reasonable conclusion as the List of fictional non-binary characters already has a guideline we can easily use here...at most you suggested a flowchart that was more complex, and I suggested to Keep It Simple. Enough's enough already.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:34, 2 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree that it didn't fizzle out, people generally regarded the standard from List of fictional non-binary characters as adequate. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:47, 2 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm late to the party, but I'm honestly surprised this is such a controversial topic. Would be nice if Toby just made a post saying "yep Kris is nonbinary" to answer the question once and for all, but for now, I think I feel like the easiest, most straightforward, most in-line with the sources, and most accurate thing to do would be to simply say something along the lines of:
Kris has an androgynous appearance and is referred to using they/them pronouns. They are frequently interpreted as a non-binary character, though neither the game nor its creator have stated the character's gender.
For the record, I personally do interpret Kris as non-binary, but I think something like the above (doesn't need to be that exact wording) just makes more sense than the clunky approach we have right now where we say in Wikivoice that Kris is nonbinary, only to have a note that goes on to say "well, not canonically."
The sources in the RfC demonstrated that it's a notable interpretation, but also demonstrated that it's a source of much disagreement. Even the article body acknowledges it's hotly debated in sources, just like how it's hotly debated here. Seems way easier and less controversial to just state what we know to be correct in Wikivoice.
As for List of fictional non-binary characters, Kris is not on that article, though I think they should be. That list uses the extremely low bar of a character being interpreted as nonbinary by at least a (1) source. But that's an inadequate criteria for calling a character nonbinary in Wikivoice when it's so controversial that there's not just different sources taking different stances, there's even sources which themselves acknowledge the disagreement and comment on it.
 Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:10, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also, wow those discussions above are absolute messes. The RfC question did not do a good job at stating what the disagreement was, nor did it do a good job at explaining what options !voters were choosing from. There were no !votes cast in the RfC (or any other section that asked for !votes; the only talk section with any !votes in it is "source for Kris being non-binary?" for some reason), and way too many comments are just guesswork about what went on inside the mind of Toby Fox, original research directly citing the game's dialogue, and other all-around bad arguments in a series of completely unstructured discussions. No wonder this hasn't been resolved, there's never been anything resembling a proper discussion about it.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:39, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely agree about the RfC. I've since been waiting for an RfC done proper because I've been too lazy to do it myself, but it hasn't happened. Oktayey (talk) 19:52, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think a very valid concern to bring up here is if we RfC just one character in this manner we're going to have a conflict where it meets guidelines for the list, but possibly may not for the article itself depending on how the discussion goes (and admittedly the above discussions due to the smaller scope were way too easily derailed), resulting in just another RfC later. If there's going to be any RfC, it should be with the List in question so we can have a concrete ruleset.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:03, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's an understandable concern, but I think it'd be helpful to have a structured discussion about Kris specifically, since them being or not being nonbinary is something that's debated not just amongst Wikipedia editors, but also RS.
I personally think that the list article should include characters like Kris who are notably often interpreted as nonbinary, and I'd also support that page listing characters who are seen as nonbinary allegories. But I wouldn't support having an unofficial rule that any character on that list should be referred to in wikivoice as nonbinary, even when doing so is contested.
I'm for keeping it simple, too, but my idea of keeping it simple is to just say what we know for certain we can say in wikivoice. I think it overcomplicates things to have wide discussions at other venues in the hopes of getting a one-size-fits-all standard for something as fuzzy as the line between a character being nonbinary, a character being ambiguous but not necessarily nonbinary, and a character's identity simply being unknown. I think any character that falls under those categories could reasonably be included in the wider list article as long as there's some sources that see them as nonbinary, but that's different from saying definitively that they are in fact nonbinary. For example, I saw Quina Quen mentioned in the WikiProject Video Games discussion. That's an example of a character who I'd support including on the list, because there are sources that call Quina an example of non-binary representation in video games. But I also think it's more correct to say, as their article currently does, that they have an ambiguous gender, as opposed to stating that their gender is nonbinary. That is a meaningful distinction.
TL;DR I'd prefer to see how we describe Kris be determined by an RfC about Kris
 Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:24, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That still creates a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS issue, especially on one that as we've seen from the larger discussions can and should apply to more characters than just Kris. A meaningful discussion on a much smaller scope especially given the above article history is also very unlikely. We need to approach this on a wider scale to ensure there's both a thorough consensus and one that can be applied to other characters.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:24, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
While I stated above that I'm skeptical that we should try to make a one-size-fits-all policy for this, if we were to come up with some sort of flowchart, then I'd prefer it to be something like this:
1. Is the character canonically nonbinary?
If yes, that's the end of it, and they should be referred to as such. Else, continue and defer to RS
2. Are they uncontroversially agreed to be nonbinary - as opposed to having an ambiguous or unknown identity - by a consensus of RS?
If yes, call them nonbinary.
If there are differing perspectives, state only known facts in wikivoice, while being sure to include all relevant viewpoints found in RS.
And that's pretty much it. I don't think it takes inventing a new policy or guideline to do that. Wikipedia's preexisting policies and guidelines about verifiability and inclusion of relevant viewpoints should be enough to guide us to doing that already. But if it's necessary to make a written standard for deciding if we should state that an androgynous character is nonbinary, this isn't a bad approach.
This simple test should work for all of the examples I saw mentioned in the WP Video Games discussion. Setsu and Testament are canonically nonbinary, they pass immediately. For Quina and Kris, it is a notable viewpoint that they are often seen as nonbinary so their articles should mention that, but it's also contentious so it shouldn't be written in Wikipedia's voice.
 Vanilla  Wizard 💙 23:08, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure Quina is contentious? The word is not used for them in universe, but what they are fits comfortably into the umbrella. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:44, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Less contentious than Kris, but their canon gender is listed as "unknown". I personally see Quina as clearly being nonbinary, but I don't think it'd be accurate for us to treat characters that are ambiguous, androgynous, or unknown as necessarily being nonbinary on Wikipedia. I like the current phrasing on their article: it explains that they have an ambiguous gender and goes on to mention how they're often discussed as an example of nonbinary representation. That's a good template for how we could handle Kris in my opinion.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 00:53, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Wizard, I think you need to understand you can't just gloss over an article with a wider consensus on what does and doesn't count being able to list something as such, but the article itself somehow 'not'. Again, that's local consensus and we need to try and avoid that. And even here, the discussion's already branching out to characters beyond Kris.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 16:06, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies, but even after rereading this a few times, I'm not quite sure I'm understanding what you mean by "you can't just gloss over an article with a wider consensus on what does and doesn't count being able to list something as such, but the article itself somehow 'not'" in relation to what I've said here. As for "Again, that's local consensus and we need to try and avoid that. And even here, the discussion's already branching out to characters beyond Kris.", the above was my response to your suggestion that we talk about some sort of flowchart that would work for any character, not just Kris.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 16:38, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think the point being made is that anything that could determine or affect the list should be discussed primarily at the list article Cukie Gherkin (talk) 17:17, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that there should be any relation between which characters are worth including on that list & how we should refer to said characters on their articles in Wikivoice, because I support the list including characters who have been discussed as examples of nonbinary representation even when it wouldn't be entirely accurate for Wikipedia to declare them nonbinary (example: Kris). That's more or less the main thing I've been saying throughout all these replies: we can say that a character with an ambiguous or unknown gender has been analyzed as a queer character (as it is a notable perspective) without taking it upon ourselves to state in no uncertain terms that they are one, especially when it contradicts canon (Quina) or there are multiple notable perspectives (Kris).  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 17:35, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
In other words I'm basically arguing for the status quo on all pages except the one page we've mentioned that deviates from it, which is this one. The list criteria sets the bar as low as a character being allowed on it as long there's even one source discussing them as nonbinary, so all the characters I mentioned I'd support being added are already eligible, and I also already mentioned I like the current phrasing on all those pages. This is the only page that I think could use some tweaking.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 17:45, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That is pretty much what I'd like to see the article say. I think it's the sensible choice when the reliable sources don't all agree on Kris being non-binary.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 17:08, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on Kris's gender identity

[edit]

How should the article refer to this character's gender identity in Wikipedia's voice?  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:36, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]


Explanation of the disagreement for uninvolved editors: The subject of this article is the main character in the game Deltarune and is referred to using the gender neutral singular they. While neither the game nor its creator have confirmed the character's identity, several secondary sources have analyzed the character as non-binary, though there is some disagreement among sources and the character's canon identity has been described as a subject of ongoing debate. As such, editors have disagreed over whether the Wikipedia article should state in its own words that Kris is non-binary.


Suggested options:

Option A - Status quo, state that Kris's gender is nonbinary

Example article text:
They are a non-binary teenager
Example infobox text:
Gender: Non-binary

Option B - Decline to state an identity in Wikivoice, instead acknowledge that this is a relevant viewpoint

Example article text:
Kris has an androgynous appearance and is referred to using they/them pronouns. They are frequently interpreted as a non-binary character, though neither the game nor its creator have stated the character's gender identity.
or other language that conveys similar information
Example infobox text:
Do not include the gender parameter

Options are provided for convenience, but any editor with a viewpoint not listed above is free to !vote however they see fit. To keep the RfC readable, I ask that participants please place !votes under "survey" but keep extended discussion (including lengthy reply chains) under "discussion"

 Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:36, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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  • Option B as nom. Absent any confirmed canon, and with multiple interpretations in RS, Wikipedia should explain with attribution how different authors have analyzed Kris's identity, rather than stating one perspective as a known fact. The debate here should ideally not be trying to convince one another of why we think Kris is nonbinary based on in-game events, as this is simply a verifiability concern and a wikivoice concern; there's enough sources debating this that there's even sources which acknowledge that it is debated, so I feel that presenting this as a settled question goes against WP:Wikipedia's voice.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:36, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option A as creator. I believe that the threshold to meet for a character to be non-binary is not a hard one to meet—"do they exist outside of the gender binary? If yes, they are non-binary"—and I believe Kris has met that definition, as a character who is not gendered as male or female by anyone in the main cast, which discounts any potential "unknown gender" as multiple characters exist who would know. I also do not believe that the acknowledment of a debate occurring lends credence to both sides of said debate; there is a debate over whether Birdo and Vivian are transgender, but we refer to them as such in Wikivoice. You may argue that this label is canon for both, but it's not. Neither character is referred to as transgender by official sources, the only canon verification is that they have traits that line them up with the transgender experience. Birdo is a "man" who wants to be a woman, while Vivian is often mocked by her sisters as being a boy. In both cases, I have seen the lack of explicit confirmation used to argue the label is inapplicable, but I also believe that the arguments lack merit. I also disagree with the premise that there are sources that debate this; there's one source that says players can project a gender onto Kris, but to me, that speaks to the game lacking an explicit declaration rather than necessarily believing that this was the intent of Toby Fox. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 21:27, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option B I think when we use the term "non-binary" to describe humans and human characters, readers will generally interpret it as deliberately gender-nonconforming, since humans can determine their identity for themselves. This interpretation is reinforced with the phrase "non-binary human teenager" as opposed to something like "non-binary video game character". Human teenagers determine their gender identity for themselves; it's not decided for them. So the natural interpretation here is that Kris identifies as non-binary. I interpreted it that way when I first read the article. In reality, their gender is never addressed and is left ambiguous. As such, it's better to omit any gender-related adjectives and put a footnote next to the first instance of "they" explaining the context. TarkusABtalk/contrib 01:01, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option B I think thats the best term to use for Kris, since their gender is 'unclear' afaik. Also, Kris is a player character and would also refer to the player (unless Deltarune separates the two). Either way, as long as no one comes barreling in with she/he I don't mind. VergilSparkles (talk) 20:55, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option B When it comes to primary sources, the facts of this case are 1) Kris is solely referred to by they/them pronouns, 2) There have been no other statements or hints on Kris' gender either in the game or out of it, 3) other characters referred to by they/them pronouns in games by the same developer have been officially stated to have "an unstated gender". There's also some more OR-y stuff like "why hasn't a single member of the dev team ever clarified the situation or answered questions on the topic". I submit that there is no consensus, especially in cases like this where there is evidence this assumption may be mistaken, that declaring characters referred with they/them pronouns as non-binary in the absence of other evidence does not constitute original research. When it comes to secondary sources, as can be seen from the previous discussions and the discussion below, which together I think have dug up pretty much every source that mentions the topic, what little reliable sources there are don't agree on whether Kris is non-binary or has a gender up to interpretation - there are two reliable sources that briefly and without comment call Kris non-binary (one of which is the results of a survey, so isn't really an appropriate source), one reliable source that arguably calls Kris non-binary but doesn't explicitly say it, one reliable source that thinks there's a good case to be made for Kris being non-binary but ultimately concludes that they can't be classed as definitely non-binary, and one reliable source that explicitly states that Kris' gender is up to player interpretation. Therefore, because citiogenesis is an extreme risk here due to the lack of official statements and the small number of sources covering the topic, the only option is to avoid stating any interpretation in Wikivoice - i.e. we should choose Option B. (some parts of this taken from my response to the earlier RfC)--Eldomtom2 (talk) 22:20, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option A. The sources cited above are overwhelmingly lopsided in favor of calling them non-binary in both quality and quantity, including multiple academic papers. The sources that support anything else are far fewer in number and clearly lower-quality. The arguments above in favor of B are all uniformly WP:OR; we absolutely cannot make our own interpretations on the game itself. Only secondary sourcing matters for this, and that sourcing is clearly lopsided in favor of "non-binary." That said, the footnote in the article should be changed to use those sources and not present its own argument based on the game. This is not something we can use primary sources for, fullstop. See WP:PRIMARY, Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Most of the arguments above are unambiguously based on analyzing, evaluating, or interpreting the primary source themselves and must be disregarded by the closer. --Aquillion (talk) 03:29, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • option a. the one source presented previously that directly contests this (stating that it might be up to player interpretation) can be proven wrong in-game as early as "after you create your character" (yes, this makes sense in context). the sources in support, the situation that led to their pronouns in the deltarune wiki having no less than 48 citations (the fact that having 48 statements for a 9 character-long text string is funny was a genuine rationale in the discussion that led to keeping it is itself really funny, and potentially actually useful for this discussion), and the fact that the only other arguments against it (such as being left ambiguous) admit they're purely hypothetical leads me to see no other plausible option consarn (grave) (obituary) 11:10, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option B Kris does not have a confirmed gender according to the WP:BESTSOURCES, namely the ones that are closest to Toby Fox. As such, we should not represent them as having a confirmed gender. Loki (talk) 14:37, 12 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option A. The sources examine and discuss Kris plainly as a non-binary character, not simply state they are 'assumed to be such' or 'interpreted as such' and examine the issues that arose with that. That's an important distinction that I feel would be lost without stating it outright to the reader, and a lot of the character's notability derives from those very discussions on them being non-binary. While it would be ideal to have Toby Fox outright state whether Kris is non-binary, we can still infer from the information given and the discussions provided that the character is, and we use secondary sources to help define a character. Nobody would be sitting here fighting tooth and nail if, say, sources overwhelmingly said a character was "tall", or a woman, or had a particular hair color.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 16:31, 12 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option B. Assuming we're still using it, the list of sources from the previous RfC that supports Option A comprises a content farm, a few vague mentions, a few sparingly cited academic papers, and some original research. I think it'd be best to leave this contentious topic out of the article until we have an abundance of quality sources to draw from, but it doesn't look like that's an option here. Oktayey (talk) 18:06, 14 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option A I initially voted B but read some of the discussion, other votes, and re-read the article. I think keeping it as is is fine actually. IzzySwag (talk) 02:33, 16 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option A. the fact that some people find them up for interpretation does not change the fact that we have several sources referring to them as nonbinary. it's true that not all of these sources are in-depth, but if those same sources had all agreed "male" or "female" there wouldn't be a problem there, so i do not think that consensus of "nonbinary" among our sources should be treated differently. we shouldn't and don't need more reliable sources than we already have. and, personally, i would not find kris's page as objective if we took inaccurate objections into account. Ceruleanwarbler2 (talk) 18:46, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment After reviewing Talk:Kris_(Deltarune)#Sources, I am leaning towards Option A. Could the sources be "wrong"? I have seen cases where a few sources comment on something that most other sources are silent on. I could also support something like "Kris has often been described as non-binary". But option B veers too close to original research. Just because there's a debate happening on the talk page doesn’t mean it belongs in the article's introduction. It always depends on the reliable sources. Archrogue (talk) 14:37, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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Please place any lengthy conversations in this section to keep the Survey section manageable for the closer.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:36, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I will reiterate, again, any discussion on whether or not characters like this should be done on List of fictional non-binary characters, as there's already an existing guideline there. Vanilla Wizard has several times tried to assert that the list should have no bearing on this article, but the list itself represents wider consensus versus a more localized one. This has been stressed to her multiple times, and while she's expressed her opinion to the contrary it overlooks the fact that we should have consistent categorization guidelines for such article (because as it stands there is a category for non-binary video game characters), which seems to be left out of this discussion per the above at this time.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:35, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, the criteria for List of fictional non-binary characters is simply: has at least one (1) source ever regarded this character as non-binary? If so, they can go on the list, even if it's a disputed interpretation. But that criteria is not workable with WP:VOICE, which is a sitewide non-negotiable policy. Suggesting we should use the inclusion criteria for a different article in a way that would override actual policy would be an egregious LOCALCONSENSUS issue. And I'm a her, not a him, it's on my userpage (admittedly buried at the bottom)  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:41, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Re Cukie's !vote, it's worth noting that the way we refer to Birdo is more or less exactly how I'm suggesting we refer to Kris  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:44, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    This goes beyond 'voice' though, there's an actual category to consider, which hilariously has a rather binary option: either Kris is or isn't regarded as non-binary. Saying in the article 'they're interpreted as non-binary' removes them from qualifying for that.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:51, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    To be clear, the distinction between Birdo and Kris is that any allusions to Birdo possibly being trans in official media are side content or well in the past (such as a description of Birdo in Super Smash Bros. Brawl that says that Birdo's gender is "indeterminate"). By contrast, Vivian is identified as trans despite the word never being used because the canon material lines up with the trans experience. Comparing Kris and Birdo would not be sensible due to that, particularly due to the fact that the contention surrounding Birdo is that they use what is likely offensive stereotyping of trans people (the manual calls Birdo a man, an official bio for her appearance in Mario Kart: Double Dash!! calls her a man, and the video game Captain Rainbow has her arrested for "posing" as a man). - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 21:55, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    If I am understanding Kung Fu Man correctly, they are suggesting that if we state in the article that Kris is often interpreted as non-binary, rather than saying in Wikivoice "Kris is non-binary", Kris would cease to qualify for the category for non-binary characters? We say of Birdo "this has led to Birdo being interpreted as transgender by several video game publications, and is seen as one of the earliest transgender characters in video games" and continue to include her in Category:Transgender characters in video games. Why are we not able to state that "Kris has been interpreted as non-binary" and include Kris in the category for non-binary characters? Disputedly non-binary characters still qualify for the list article, after all. The only debate here is how best to describe Kris in Wikipedia's own words in the article prose, which boils down to whether it's an uncontroversial fact or a controversial opinion, of which it is the latter.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 22:02, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    My point is that the reason for why Birdo's gender identity is phrased that way is non-applicable to Kris, hence the comparison does not work - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:04, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    If the reason why Birdo's identity is phrased differently is that Birdo is a formerly transgender character who is now only regarded as cisgender, then Birdo's continued inclusion in the transgender characters category makes Kung Fu Man's concern over Kris's eligibility for the non-binary characters category even more difficult to understand. In the case of Vivian, describing her as a transgender character is uncontroversial in the sense that, to my knowledge at least, no RS has ever indicated otherwise, whereas with Kris the text of the article states "while there has been debate over whether Kris is non-binary". Vivian's being transgender may have been "controversial" with some fans who might have a problem with that, but there's not really any sources that I'm aware of that acknowledge any debate over whether Vivian is in fact transgender. We also discussed comparisons to a handful of other characters prior to the RfC, in which I concluded that this is the only page I'm aware of with disagreeable language. But for the sake of any uninvolved participants who may have not played the same games as us, we should probably spend most of the discussion focusing on Kris going forward, and not other content  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 22:22, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    When did I say Nintendo perceived Birdo as cisgender? I said they called Birdo a man in Double Dash (to be clearer, they said Birdo was a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend to Yoshi), that Birdo was called a man who wants to be a woman, and that Birdo was arrested in a game by people who believed her a man. The only thing that I said was that her gender rarely comes up outside of her pronouns, not that Nintendo landed anywhere with respect to trans vs. cis (and likely will never because Nintendo is a conservative company). As far as the debate angle, we also don't have any sources that debate Kris being non-binary. Framing an acknowledgement of a debate existing doesn't lend credence to either side of said debate, it's a wash. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:40, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Framing an acknowledgement of a debate existing doesn't lend credence to either side of said debate, it's a wash. But that's the whole point, we're not here to argue which side is correct, the simple fact that it is debated means we shouldn't be stating debated opinions as fact. Wikipedia doesn't take sides, it explains them.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 22:51, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    But my point is that acknowledging that debate exists means nothing if you don't make a statement on the strength of either side's argument. This is in response to " there's enough sources debating this that there's even sources which acknowledge that it is debated." This implies that any sources have commentary on the merits of the debate, when in fact, no sources debate non-binary or not. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:12, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Of the sources in the aborted RfC above, there was only one good quality source for both stances (gaymingmag referred to Kris as non-binary, rpgfan describes Kris as a character without an official gender who allows players to project themselves, the rest of the sources were either unreliable, not even about Deltarune or Kris, or cited reddit posts that didn't even say anything resembling what they said they said). We have good quality sources for both perspectives, and we have an additional source that celebrates Kris as non-binary representation while also taking a moment to acknowledge that there is a debate over whether Kris is canonically non-binary. We have multiple relevant viewpoints, we should explain them without declaring one of them to be an objective fact.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 23:23, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    None of this is relevant to my statement that suggesting that RPGFan's statement lends credence to the idea that there's a debate. Also, https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/09/17/deltarune-chapter-two-undertale/ Cukie Gherkin (talk) 23:36, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    RPGFan's statement lends credence to an alternate viewpoint, and TheGamer gave credence to the idea that there are multiple viewpoints. Again, articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, avoid stating opinions as facts, if different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements. These are all verbatim quotes from WP:NPOV, a non negotiable policy. Sure, we can give more weight to the interpretation of Kris being nonbinary, that's why I did so in the version I am suggesting in option B. But we cannot state matter of factly that Kris is nonbinary. The right approach from a policy standpoint is pretty easy to see here.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 23:44, 7 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Responding to TarkusAB) small problem: "left ambiguous" isn't really all that correct, see the good ol' 48 citations for the big ol' pronouns in the deltarune wiki for a start~ consarn (grave) (obituary) 10:57, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I don't understand your point. If you want to expand, please move to the discussion section. TarkusABtalk/contrib 15:50, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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on the topic of whether or not kris's gender is meant to be ambiguous, here's my 0.037 cents (currency exchange is brutal around here, d*ng)
as discussed a couple times before, using those specific pronouns for kris in a manner that implies that their identity is being left ambiguous or deliberately hidden would require a lot of people to be out of the loop, like alphys (their particularly triangular teacher), toriel (their mother), susie (their go-to companion for eating moss), and the game's own devs. problem is, they also exclusively use the good ol' singular "they" to refer to kris, as does pretty much everyone who isn't using gendered stuff in a general way (like jevil). arguments can be made against directly saying that they're nb, sure, but this one is a stretch at best, as it requires coming up with a reason for no less than 48 uses of a type of pronoun by pretty much everyone to be fake, actually, out of what amounts to no evidence
...this is all on the in-universe side, though. out of it, among sources that say kris might be something else (be it by referring to them as male, or stating that it's up to player preference or interpretation), i hate to say it, especially so directly, but this is one of those cases where, even despite npov being non-negotiable, we can use other sources to prove that they're plainly wrong. whether or not this means their statements should be directly addressed as mistaken in the article (via use of sources that say otherwise, that is) is beyond me, but i'm at the very least not in the mood to give them much weight
this means that, from the research i've done, i pretty strongly believe that the only stances that don't require having the literacy skills or source material knowledge of the average deltarune fan would be "kris is nb" and "kris is probably nb", and since the only sources that go out of their way to make any conclusive statements about that say they're nb, i'm veering towards that consarn (grave) (obituary) 17:25, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
oh hey this reply added exactly 2222 characters lol consarn (grave) (obituary) 17:29, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Can't people use they/them pronouns but be gender-conforming? TarkusABtalk/contrib 19:55, 8 August 2025 (UTC) I'll just let that go. TarkusABtalk/contrib 20:41, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe "left ambiguous" isn't entirely true because, as you said, Fox almost surely wants the player to view Kris as nbi through context clues. Actually, I still stand by that ambiguous is more true to the situation than non-binary (but fwiw, I think there's still enough creedence that we should list Kris on the nbi list, and in nbi categories). My concern is with how we present this to the reader to avoid misinterpretation, and how much importance we attach to it. I understand that their gender doesn't actually matter in context of the game's story, nor does Fox bring any attention to it, so it's weird that we do from the jump. TarkusABtalk/contrib 20:36, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
My response to this is the same as it always is - what is Toby supposed to have done if he genuinely wanted to write a character with an ambiguous gender? I realise that this is a hypothetical, but it's an important one when we don't know Toby's intentions and thus "Toby intended to write Kris as canonically non-binary" is just as much a hypothetical. (My response to the hypothetical "What should Toby have done if he wanted Kris to be seen as nonbinary?" is that Toby has shown himself to be good at confirming things in a natural way - see the way he confirmed Ralsei's pronunciation - but this is somewhat irrelevant and the primary point here is that the text itself doesn't say enough to write anything about Kris' gender in Wikivoice).--Eldomtom2 (talk) 22:18, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, if I wanted to confirm a character was non-binary I'd correct someone when they use he/him Cukie Gherkin (talk) 13:40, 9 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also correct someone using he/him if they were speaking in an official context about a character I wanted to have an ambiguous gender!--Eldomtom2 (talk) 18:07, 9 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
See this is my concern here, because it feels like we're just going to have another RfC after this one because some folks in the above discussions feel they shouldn't be in the non-binary category at all. But even the people voting in here to change the wording are stating the character should be. That's why I was bringing up this is going to be a bit of a trainwreck otherwise.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:28, 9 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
KFM, tbh, I think you're are worried about a non-issue. I only mentioned the category/list thing because you brought it up. Nobody here has challenged the category/list inclusion, and that isn't what this RFC is about anyways. TarkusABtalk/contrib 18:57, 9 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As an aside, can the responses in the Survey section be removed to avoid people thinking to make responses in there too? Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:00, 9 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
done TarkusABtalk/contrib 19:09, 9 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well if we go with Option B, then arguably it makes sense to have a second RfC that, taking the article text as fixed, decides whether the nonbinary character category should be used. But that's a hypothetical and I don't think it's especially relevant to this RfC.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 23:11, 9 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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  • Responding to Aquillion's !vote, I think they might want to give those sources another look. As I mentioned above, most of the sources on that list they linked to are unusable and are either from unreliable outlets, not even about Kris or Deltarune, or both. The "academic" sources in question would almost certainly fail WP:SCHOLARSHIP, especially the undergraduate (bachelor) paper that simply surveyed a few hundred reddit users. It's not really so lopsided; you could count on one hand the combined number of actually usable sources for both perspectives. The argument for option B is based on WP:NPOV and is an argument against OR, while OR is the primary argument for the status quo language.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 10:07, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    npov is about giving explaining both sides, sure, but even if you ignore all the supposed or going on here (will accept it for analyzing the game, not so much for analyzing sources), what happens if sources prove that a claim is wrong, outnumber the opposition by a whole multiplier (pretty easy when the multiplicand is 1), and present... really, any form of evidence actually unique to kris? we can't really present it as a fact if it can be so easily shown to be incorrect. the way i see it, the numbers wouldn't result in the claims being given equal weight, the claims themselves can't both be true, and even if you think that using one source against another is original research, they do still present claims that would necessarily conflict if used together consarn (grave) (obituary) 11:55, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    NPOV and more specifically VOICE is about avoiding stating opinion as fact, and Kris's identity or Toby Fox's intentions are not knowable facts. There's a very, very small number of good sources for either side, but we know that there are multiple sides. The only source that could "prove" Kris's identity would be confirmed canon, which we do not have. What we do have is more or less two reliable sources calling Kris non-binary, one reliable source calling Kris a character that the player can project themselves onto, and one reliable source praising Kris as an example of non-binary representation while also acknowledging that Kris's identity is ambiguous and debated. Per If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, sources that say either that Kris is or is not nonbinary should be treated as essentially op-eds; how a source refers to Kris's identity is an opinion matter, not a matter of fact.
    There's also several issues with the "48 sources on the Deltarune wiki" you've mentioned a couple times: 1) these sources are to verify that Kris uses they/them pronouns, which no option here disputes, 2) they are all primary sources consisting of in-game quotes; it's just a compilation of every time Kris has been referred to as a they, so it would be an OR violation to say that proves Kris is non-binary 3) the argument that a character being referred to as a they is all it takes to label them non-binary would fall apart even for other Deltarune characters, as there is another character referred to using exclusively the singular they, so you could very easily make another refbomb of every time they've ever been referred to as a they, even though no one believes the other character in question is non-binary.
    This is why I suggested "the debate here should ideally not be trying to convince one another of why we think Kris is nonbinary based on in-game events." Do I personally believe when playing the game that Kris is nonbinary? Yes, yes I do. And if I were discussing with someone who was unconvinced, I would make similar arguments to the ones you've made here. But I'm differentiating between what I'd be comfortable stating as fact around friends versus what I'd be comfortable stating as fact on Wikipedia. Verifiability, NPOV, and no original research are the three core content policies of Wikipedia, and stating an unknowable unconfirmed opinion as a fact based on one's own reading of a work of fiction and what the author probably did or did not intend manages to run afoul of all three of them.
     Vanilla  Wizard 💙 19:34, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    For clarity so others know which sources you consider reliable, can you name the four sources you mention?--Eldomtom2 (talk) 21:09, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Gaymingmag (Non-binary), RPGFan (Up to interpretation), PinkNews (Non-binary), and TheGamer (Acknowledges debate + interprets as non-binary). These ones were mentioned above but it's easy to miss with how long the discussion is. The master's thesis (Up to interpretation) you linked to in your comments below could also be reliable under WP:SCHOLARSHIP, I haven't had a chance to properly look at it. And just to restate for uninvolved editors who might skim this, this isn't an argument in favor of choosing one perspective or the other, but rather an argument that Wikipedia should neutrally explain that these perspectives exist. It's not about which side is right, it's just about the existence of multiple sides in reliable sources.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 22:38, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    As it has no measurable impact on any scholarly literature and hasn't been published in a peer-reviewed journal I would place the thesis by Wiik as "marginally reliable" here (WP:THESIS) -- Reconrabbit 20:12, 13 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a fair assessment. Per the POV and peer review in journals bulletpoint under SCHOLARSHIP I'd say this one would probably be usable with attribution to state the author's opinion (which is what I think we should be doing for all sources here anyways because it is an opinion matter) as non-peer-reviewed publications would only be reliable to show the views of the groups represented by those journals. I wouldn't be opposed to adding it to the article, but for the purposes of this discussion, I won't be adding the thesis so my mental list of the four WP:BESTSOURCES which can be seen above. The others mentioned are considered reliable at either RS/P or VG/S except for Gaymingmag, but that one was briefly discussed last month and WP:VG more or less gave it a thumbs up.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 15:46, 14 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    you linked the knight as an example of referred to by exclusively they/them but never considered nonbinary. however, the knight is referred to by they/them and it/its interchangably, the aformentioned deltarune wiki uses it/its for the knight, and in-story the knight is called 'which' instead of 'who' by an omnipotent prophecy. so even if knight theories are debated heavily among the community, it is really common to say that, whatever is going on with it, the knight is not male or female. in general, i can't think of a deltarune character that is clearly "they/them because theyre up for interpretation" and i wouldnt say anything in deltarune can give precendent for kris being up for interpretation. i know this is pretty pedantic but id rather it be clear haha. Ceruleanwarbler2 (talk) 20:21, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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  • Can I ask, if Kris was undeniably non-binary, why do we still present in in the article the way we do? I've never seen anything like "Samus Aran is a female game character". And for real people, we don't write "Demi Lovato is a non-binary singer and songwriter". In every case like this I've seen, the gender identity is not stated up front directly, and there is a footnote after the first they/he/she if the pronouns require explanation. It feels awkwardly forced in Kris' article. TarkusABtalk/contrib 16:24, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not opposed to tweaking that, though I would argue that their gender stands out to a greater degree than Samus' by virtue of being atypical. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 18:05, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd be much happier with something like that. Like Kris is a video game character from Deltarune. They(footnote: Kris is non-binary, and referred to with they/them pronouns[1][2][3]) reside in the Light World... TarkusABtalk/contrib 18:39, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    that seems fine to me Cukie Gherkin (talk) 18:53, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Responding to Aquillion's vote, I agree with Vanilla Wizard's points. In addition I also remembered that there's this master's thesis not that, in categorising "transgender and gender non-conforming characters" in video games, places Kris in the category for characters where "the character’s gender identity can be considered to be a topic of discussion, and the game or its developers have not confirmed or disconfirmed the theories either way. In these instances the topic and any conclusions made on it are mostly left up to the player’s own interpretation." because "It is unclear how the gender of these characters [including Kris] is supposed to be read, and where within the transgender, genderqueer, or non-binary field they fit." even though "the existence of some sort of transgender representation is quite obvious and certain, although it is still implicit and ambiguous." Because this discusses Kris is more detail than the other theses suggested as sources while making it clear that Kris being non-binary is not the only possible reading, I think it's a good source for the article not saying Kris is nonbinary in Wikivoice.
  • Responding to consarn's vote, I'm sorry, but your argument is just original research and claiming that they/them pronouns is enough for Wikipedia to call a character nonbinary, which there seems to be a consensus against.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 18:19, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Responding to Kung Fu Man's vote, I dispute the argument that the sources are overwhelmingly in favour of Kris being non-binary. If one looks at the reliable (not situational) sources that give significant coverage to Kris' gender, not merely state they're non-binary in passing, there's clearly no consensus. I'd also like to see your logic behing "a lot of the character's notability derives from those very discussions on them being non-binary".--Eldomtom2 (talk) 17:50, 12 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    related to that vote, but not to this reply, hey kfm, i think you let a "he" slip consarn (grave) (obituary) 17:59, 12 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I do have to say I find it disappointing that he corrected himself when he misgendered the fictional character, but he did not when he misgendered me  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:24, 12 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry about that Vanilla.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 05:06, 13 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    No worries, thank you for editing your earlier comment  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 12:25, 13 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't the status quo be considered the lack of any mention of Kris's gender? This dispute began when such a claim was added to the article. Oktayey (talk) 20:08, 12 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this incarnation of the page did say Kris was non-binary when it was first created, but a dispute over it started pretty much immediately. On a separate note, you haven't voted in the RfC yet, so you should probably make your position clear by voting.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 21:05, 12 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not putting any opinion forth in this RfC but will point out it is explicitly not a vote. -- Reconrabbit 12:48, 13 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's pedantry, honestly. Everyone calls it a vote even though they're aware that it's not a simple "majority wins".--Eldomtom2 (talk) 16:46, 13 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Fair. Reading above that seems common. I will put forth the opinion here that citing a thesis that I cannot find any instances where it has been cited by other papers is not ideal. I would afford this about equal weight to a Time Extension article. -- Reconrabbit 17:28, 13 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well, none of the other theses have been cited for the claims on Kris' gender either.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 19:52, 13 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I find the notion that we should not mention something verified by reliable sources (such as LGBTnation) in any capacity a concerning proposal. Given your prior Tban from LGBT topics for, in part, arguing against consensus on whether anti-LGBT hate groups should be identified as such and attempting to discredit LGBT centric sources due to being LGBT, I find myself questioning your motives for wanting the term "non-binary" to be completely excised from the article despite sourcing for it and no direct contradictions. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:22, 14 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Oktayey: didn't ping properly - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:22, 14 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanilla Wizard, just so you know, the closers are expected to read all the comments and not just the "votes". It's okay to ask people to separate long discussion threads, but it's probably not especially helpful to the closer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:55, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@WhatamIdoing: Please see the failed RfC above this one, as it was the previous closer who suggested doing it this way. I am very aware that closers read and take into consideration everything, not just the !votes, and I do not always structure RfCs this way, but this one is how it is because the it's what the last closer would have preferred, and because as of writing every other attempt at resolving this has been too much of a mess to make sense of. I still don't envy whoever will close this one, as they will undoubtedly have to make determinations as to which !votes have any grounding in policy (many do not), but I'd like to think they will at least appreciate that it's not impossible to make sense of who's arguing what in this one. On that note, I think I should add a few arbitrary breaks to this discussion.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 13:08, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think that if you're going to say "many !votes are not grounded in policy" you should provide some examples.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 15:06, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I believe we've both already commented on !votes we found to be objectionable and, in some cases, had lengthy discussions with the editors who left those !votes. It's ultimately going to be up to the closer how to weigh the !votes, and I wouldn't like to restart any debates with that brief comment I made about not all !votes being equally policy-based, but I felt that Cukie and consarn's !votes relied heavily on WP:OR, the former having WP:OTHERCONTENT sprinkled in, the latter relying primarily on the Deltarune fan wiki having a list of every time the character is referred to with the gender neutral singular they in in-game dialogue in the form of a WP:REFBOMB.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 16:50, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Eldomtom2, I suggest that it's best if anyone who could be perceived as part of the "opposition" does not provide examples of how their "opponents" are wrong. Additionally, it doesn't necessarily matter, because not every decision is supposed to be "grounded in policy". Editors are also supposed to use common sense, reason, good judgement, practicality, etc. when writing articles and solving disputes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:38, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"I suggest that it's best if anyone who could be perceived as part of the "opposition" does not provide examples of how their "opponents" are wrong" - er, what? Why can't people explain why they think people who disagree with them are wrong? --Eldomtom2 (talk) 19:10, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, you're doing it in response to everyone, despite similar arguments being made for Option A. Do you think the closer benefits from seeing your rebuttal five times? Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:24, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break 4

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  • Responding to @Ceruleanwarbler2:'s vote, as I have stated, I do not think there is a consensus in reliable sources about Kris' gender.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 19:10, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    i read your previous comments about this before voting and i still disagree. if those passing mentions we have of their gender in multiple sources were instead "male" or "female" i can't see this debate existing. i believe the sources we have are proof enough to make a statement, even if there is one source and some commenters disagreeing. Ceruleanwarbler2 (talk) 19:25, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    To add to this, the source used—RPGFan—doesn't even disagree, they just say that Kris is not explicitly described as non-binary, thereby allowing for player interpretation. The author of that piece never says what they think their gender is, or if they think Kris is intended to be a self-insert, just that there's nothing in canon that prevents self insertion. That's one interpretation, just like it's one interpretation that RPGFan believes Kris is not non-binary (though I would argue it's not a well-founded one). Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:32, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ceruleanwarbler2 we actually arguably have two sources, and both give a fair amount of coverage on Kris whereas half the reliabe sources that say Kris is non-binary just do it in passing. @Cukie Gherkin, for the purposes of the article the RPGFan article is disagreeing with Option A of this RfC, because it's explicitly saying "Kris is non-binary" is not the only valid interpretation. I'm not sure what the relevance of "the author of that piece never says what they think their gender is" is - you are aware that no one has argued that this article should say that Kris has a canon binary gender, right?--Eldomtom2 (talk) 21:21, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I am pointing out that this source is not contradictory, and adding that canon is not important if there are no sources contradicting it. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:30, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    if your "second source" is Legends of Localization: i am against including Legends of Localization as a source. 1. the book does not say kris is nonbinary, but it also does not say kris's gender should be determined by the player. it's vague about it, and not in a way i think we could translate into a source saying they are to be interpreted. 2. more importantly, in my opinion, Mandelin has gone on record to describe himself as a "narrator" who is merely commentating on his interpretation of undertale and not someone to be taken as a source on the game's lore. the author said that he was not a reliable source for these kinds of topics, so we simply should not use him as a reliable source.
    it also feels odd to consider rpgfan's source more important in coverage. their mention of kris's gender is an aside in one sentence focused on frisk. i don't think that source is more important than the 8 other sources we have where "they are nonbinary" is also a brief mention. Ceruleanwarbler2 (talk) 22:35, 17 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    it's probably a good time to mention (for like the 10rd time) that that book isn't actually about kris, or even deltarune, in the first place. you could argue that moby kox had identical (or at least similar enough) intentions with frisk and kris, but even ignoring the fact that their similarities pretty much begin and end at the names, would itself be original research, as the book doesn't directly compare the two (to my knowledge, at least, i sitll haven't been able to pirate i mean legally purchase it in this state in which shipping is not supported and would be ludicrously expensive if it was on top of currency exchange also making the book itself ludicrously expensive) consarn (grave) (obituary) 01:15, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, to respond to all three comments as a whole:
    • I really don't see how you can argue that RPGFan is not contradictory. It is directly stating that Kris' gender is up to player interpretation. That directly contradicts an article stating that Kris is nonbinary in Wikivoice.
    • Also on RPGFan, it definitely talks about Kris (in conjunction with Frisk) more than most of the sources we got, in that it extends to a couple of sentences rather than a few words, and even then we only have two reliable sources that explicitly call Kris nonbinary (and one of those is reporting the results of a survey, and so is not really an appropriate source).
    • No, the second source I was referring to is not Legends of Localisation. It is this thesis that we've previously discussed in this RfC. Considering that this also discusses Kris' gender more than that the sources in favour of Kris being nonbinary... --Eldomtom2 (talk) 14:42, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It does not say that, the RPGFan source says that players can interpret Kris' gender, not that it is up to interpretation. These may be similar, but they are not the same thing. The former statement does not even affirm that they believe that this is what was intended, or that they see the character like this. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:00, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, this thesis is an incredibly weak source. It has not been cited by anyone, it is not published, and the author doesn't seem to have done anything else. Furthermore, I can't check the source at this moment, but from the preview on Google Scholar, the author appears to identify Kris as a transgender character. EDIT: Read the full piece, all it affirms is that the game does not explicitly state what Kris' gender is, which is not a contentious claim. They even clarify that they are saying that the way they fit under the trans umbrella is unclear very explicitly stating that they are some flavor of trans, using genderqueer and non-binary as examples of what Kris may be (the former being validly under the non-binary umbrella). Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:05, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    i'll defer to cukie on the scholarly paper and assume that it does not state they are up for player interpretation. without that - i understand that RPGFan is contradictory, but when we have 1 "no" and many "yes" from cukie's source list i don't see why we need to consider the "no" as anything but a mistake. and, again, cukie's source list from the previous rfc does have many minor mentions of kris being nonbinary. even with individual problems, where we should discredit some sources, they show an overall consensus, so i do not think it is fair to nitpick them all so we can call them inappropriate and then claim the discussion only has 2 "yes". these various articles do show a widespread consensus. i would also like to double down on my statement that, in the 1 "no" source, kris has an aside in 1 sentence about frisk, a different character. this is slightly more elaboration than some of our other sources, but not enough for me to consider it more important. Ceruleanwarbler2 (talk) 16:15, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • On "the RPGFan source says that players can interpret Kris' gender, not that it is up to interpretation. These may be similar, but they are not the same thing". So what is the difference, then? I am struggling to see what line you are drawing here. Are you attempting to argue that "players can interpret Kris' gender however they like" is actually a statement that doesn't say anything about the game at all?
    • On the thesis, it may be a weak source, but frankly so are the sources on the other side, the reliable ones of which are also mostly theses - and while the sources on the other side may have a few citations, they have no citations citing them for the claim that Kris is nonbinary. In addition, while it says that Kris is somewhere "within the transgender, genderqueer, or non-binary field", it explicitly states that it can't say where Kris is in it (and thus is explicitly stating it can't say Kris is definitely nonbinary) - and thus is a source against saying Kris is nonbinary in Wikivoice.
    • On cukie's source list, there are only three (arguably two) sources in that list that a) are reliable and b) actually say Kris is nonbinary. The list is padded out with clickbait and sources that say Frisk is nonbinary (but don't say anything about Kris). You can't use this padding to claim a consensus. There are three reliable sources talking about Kris that say Kris is nonbinary. That's not enough for a consensus when there are opposing sources.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 17:06, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      1. "Up to interpretation" would be their personal perspective, "players interpret" is a description of the reality. It would be akin to a source on, say, Vivian that affirms that there exist players who interpret Vivian as male based on the Japanese script. This wouldn't be an affirmation that Vivian is male, merely that there exist people who interpret her this way.
      2. Its weakness isn't merely the fact that it is an uncited, unpublished thesis from someone without experience, but also the fact that they are pretty clearly affirming that Kris isn't a self-insert character. While they did not define Kris as one thing, their statement can't work in conjunction with "up to interpretation". If you interpret Kris as anything other than trans, genderqueer (can fall under non-binary), and non-binary (can fall under trans), then this source contradicts that.
      3. The problem is that the sources affirming that Kris is non-binary are all explicit. There's no argument to be made that any of the sources provided don't say what is claimed to be said. On the other hand, the only sources you've provided are an RPGFan source that doesn't itself say that Kris' gender is up for interpretation, and a marginally reliable at best source that contradicts "up for interpretation". I would argue it comes closer to confirming non-binary than up to interpretation!
      Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:33, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Your interpretation of the RPGFan source doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Here is the relevant quote in full:

    Tangentially, a special mention has to go to the player characters, Frisk and sequel Deltarune‘s new hero Kris, who have no official gender – players can project themselves if they please (and many do), and the game only references them as they; something I especially enjoyed and I truly wish more games with androgynous/silent heroes would do. (I’m looking at you SMT!) And while Frisk is quiet, there’s never a point where their gender would matter or change anything… and that’s kinda the point, no?

    • That is very clearly making a statement about the game, not about people's reaction to it, especially since it goes on to praise the game for it. So hopefully we can agree that the RPGFan article is a source for Kris' gender being up to interpretation.
    • As for the thesis, option B is not for the article to say "Kris' gender is up to player interpretation" and the thesis clearly and explicitly states that Kris can't be definitively classed as nonbinary. So it is a source in favour of Option B and against Option A. I have no idea what "Kris isn't a self-insert character" has to do with anything, since the thesis never mentions it and a character's gender being unstated or up to interpretation has nothing to do with them being a self-insert or not.
    • And as I've already stated, there's only two reliable sources that explicitly say Kris is nonbinary, plus one that's clearly intended to say it but doesn't explicitly say it.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 20:10, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Both of your sources confirm only that there is no official gender, which no one has argued. The RPGFan source does not claim that Kris' gender is up to interpretation, just that the lack of an officially stated gender allows for self-insertion. The author does not state that they consider Kris a self-insert, and I honestly think that you're actively misinterpreting what was said. The thesis is also a statement on the lack of an official gender, as they don't allow for, say, "male" "female" "cisgender" as possible interpretations. This is pretty explicitly a case where the author of the marginally reliable thesis considers the use of they/them as a means to say that the character's gender is nonstandard. Transgender is an umbrella term, for which multiple things that would be considered non-binary fall under. Non-binary, genderqueer, genderfluid, bigender, agender, these are all things that can fall under transgender. Non-binary itself is an umbrella under the umbrella that covers these things. Do you argue that my interpretation of the source—that it is talking about non-standard gender identity/presentation—is an invalid one? Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:18, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Both of your sources confirm only that there is no official gender, which no one has argued." - You will find absolutely no sources saying "Kris has no official gender but they're nonbinary", because that isn't a coherent statement. It's one or the other. You have sources that directly state that Kris is nonbinary - with no qualification that this is their interpretation - or sources that say that Kris has no official gender.
    • "The RPGFan source does not claim that Kris' gender is up to interpretation, just that the lack of an officially stated gender allows for self-insertion. The author does not state that they consider Kris a self-insert, and I honestly think that you're actively misinterpreting what was said." - Well the important point is that this is utterly irrelevant to this RfC, it supports Option B no matter how you slice it. But to address your point, saying "Players can project themselves" and then going on to say that that's a good thing is absolutely saying "Kris' gender is up to interpretation", and secondly what is the difference between "no official gender" and "gender up to interpretation" anyway?
    • "The thesis is also a statement on the lack of an official gender, as they don't allow for, say, "male" "female" "cisgender" as possible interpretations" - it (arguably) rules out cisgender as a valid interpretation, but it absolutely doesn't rule out male or female.
    • "Do you argue that my interpretation of the source—that it is talking about non-standard gender identity/presentation—is an invalid one?" - I argue that because it explicitly states Kris can't be definitively stated to be nonbinary, that it is a source in favour of Option B. Do you dispute that?--Eldomtom2 (talk) 22:08, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Official gender means that the gender is explicitly stated, and we delineate that from male and female because for men and women, being called he/him and she/her officially means male/female respectively. Your thesis source brings up the lack of an official gender to say that it's harder to interpret which nonstandard gender Kris falls under. As far as "it doesn't rule out male and female," can you explain why the author might think Kris cannot be cisgender, but that they could be a man or woman? What in the game would lead someone to believe that Kris could be a trans man or trans woman? To me, it is common sense that, if a person thinks "they/them" rules out "cisgender", then "they/them" would rule out male/female unless there was evidence to suggest they may be a trans man or trans woman, and there does not exist anything of the sort.
      Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:20, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't have to explain "why the author might think Kris cannot be cisgender, but that they could be a man or woman". That would be original research. I will just repeat what the thesis actually says:

    Kris has no stated gender, a gender-neutral name, and is referred to with the singular they/them pronouns with no further information on the topic. It is unclear how the gender of these characters is supposed to be read, and where within the transgender, genderqueer, or non-binary field they fit. In these cases, the existence of some sort of transgender representation is quite obvious and certain, although it is still implicit and ambiguous.

    • So firstly, even Kris being under the "the transgender, genderqueer, or non-binary field" is "implicit and ambiguous", and thus probably not appropriate to state in Wikivoice. Secondly, Kris is somewhere within "the transgender, genderqueer, or non-binary field", and that can only be read as including the possibility that Kris is transgender but not genderqueer or nonbinary. Thirdly, it is explicitly stated that it is unclear how Kris' gender is meant to be read.
    • I also repeat my point that "Kris has no official gender but they're nonbinary" is an incoherent statement, and one that none of the sources make.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 19:10, 20 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      Official gender as interpreted as "stated gender", Kris does not have one. Also, "it's unclear how it's meant to be read" doesn't work with your interpretation if you cannot explain why the author might have ruled out cisgender. My explanation does account for this, yours does not. Original research is not a talk page guideline, it's used for articles. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:29, 20 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Official gender as interpreted as "stated gender", Kris does not have one." - "Kris has no stated gender but they're nonbinary" is also an incoherent statement that none of the sources make.
    • "My explanation does account for this, yours does not." - Flip the argument around. How does your argument account for the thesis not saying that Kris is definitely some variety of genderqueer or nonbinary?
    • "Original research is not a talk page guideline, it's used for articles." - Sure, you can put whatever you want on talk pages. But obviously when it comes to deciding what should be in the article we can't use original research to argue for our preferred research. Of course if you want to bring in original research, I can break out my "why hasn't anybody on the dev team, which includes trans and nonbinary people, stated that Kris is nonbinary?" argument...--Eldomtom2 (talk) 21:27, 20 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      But we're not interpreting intent. Why hasn't Toby Fox come out and said Noelle's gender? I'm not really interested in demonstrating heightened standards for determination. A character who is cited as non-binary, who only uses they/them pronouns, is non-binary. Just like we consider a character having she/her pronouns as being female. As far as the thesis goes, because non-binary gender presentation is incredibly vast, with multiple ways to express it that may not neatly fit into a specific box. Finally, repeating that something is incoherent despite its coherency is a you issue. Noelle's gender is not stated, but Noelle is not interpreted as being a woman, she is understood to be a woman. Noelle has no officially stated gender, but she is a woman. Is this coherent? Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:52, 20 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • "But we're not interpreting intent. Why hasn't Toby Fox come out and said Noelle's gender?" - Okay, so we are getting into the original research weeds. The difference with Noelle is that Noelle being female is not controversial.
    • "A character who is cited as non-binary, who only uses they/them pronouns, is non-binary." - My position has always been that we do not have a consensus among reliable sources for the claim that Kris is nonbinary. And, of course, I think we can agree that they/them pronouns on their own are not enough to call a character nonbinary.
    • "As far as the thesis goes, because non-binary gender presentation is incredibly vast, with multiple ways to express it that may not neatly fit into a specific box" - So you are directly denying that the paper saying that Kris is somewhere within "the transgender, genderqueer, or non-binary field" means that the paper is saying Kris could be transgender but not genderqueer or nonbinary?
    • "Noelle's gender is not stated, but Noelle is not interpreted as being a woman, she is understood to be a woman. Noelle has no officially stated gender, but she is a woman." - This is using an extremely specific definition of "stated gender" that not only do I not think most people would agree with, it is a definition that none of the sources appear to use. When they say "unstated gender", they quite clearly appear to mean "a definitive answer on this character's gender can not be made solely using the work and nothing else". --Eldomtom2 (talk) 19:23, 21 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      You say you don't want to do OR, and yet you're giving your own personal perspective on what a source meant and saying it's the objective one. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:20, 21 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think that my interpretation (if you use that definition of OR Wikipedia can't exist because using a source inherently means interpreting it in some way) is by far the simplest one because all it does is assume it literally means what it says.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 18:48, 22 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      You're interpreting what stated gender means. This can definitionally mean that their gender is not literally said in the game. This is an important clarification for non-binary people, as it gives context to the fact that it's not made explicit, but that they are some flavor of transgender (including a kind of non-binary identity). The fact that there's ambiguity on what their intent was should be more than enough to discount a marginally reliable source. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:46, 22 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
      admittedly, i'm just not gonna accept this one at all. you were the one who wasted days of our lifespans discussing a book about a different game only to admit that it ultimately had nothing to do with the discussion, and then spent a lot of this rfc repeating the same "but what if no?" arguments from the previous discussions with decreasing coherence, and despite the small amount of evidence you did provide being vastly outnumbered and outperformed by sources that support the opposing viewpoint of "ye they're nb lol", and not even supporting your viewpoints in the first place. do better consarn (grave) (obituary) 20:04, 22 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have also expanded my survey response to include my breakdown of the reliable sources.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 14:47, 18 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break 4.5

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  • "but that they are some flavor of transgender (including a kind of non-binary identity" - As I keep repeating, the thesis does not say "they are some variety of genderqueer or nonbinary".
  • "The fact that there's ambiguity on what their intent was should be more than enough to discount a marginally reliable source." - okay, if we discount "marginally reliable" sources and sources where there's ambiguity, that gives us two sources for Kris being nonbinary vs. one against. That's not a consensus.
  • "you were the one who wasted days of our lifespans discussing a book about a different game only to admit that it ultimately had nothing to do with the discussion" - I never attempted to argue we should be using Legends of Localisation as a source for the article. My point was that it was evidence we shouldn't be assuming "they/them pronouns = nonbinary".
  • "being vastly outnumbered and outperformed by sources that support the opposing viewpoint" - See my point above - when you're not padding it out with clickbait and sources that aren't talking about Kris, you only have a couple of sources for Kris being nonbinary.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 00:38, 23 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The RPGFan source is not against. It does not say that the author views Kris as a self insert, they only say that people self insert. Anything more is speculation on your part. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 03:30, 23 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • Even if I grant you that - which I don't - a) "no official gender" clearly means we shouldn't declare a gender in Wikivoice and b) my other point about how "players can project" is clearly a descriptive statement about the game, not about its players still holds.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 19:56, 23 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    my point was that it's easy to outnumber one source, easier to outnumber nothing, and even easier to outperform a source of debatable at best correctness by multiple others that present conflicting arguments. as for the book, that whole discussion was still worthless, as your only actual argument towards it having any effect on deltarune relies on toby writing two characters to be extremely different but then randomly deciding that they should share this one character trait the game demonstrates is at best unlikely (with sources following suit), which is speculation so speculative even an nft trader would avoid it, and not even related to the book itself. i can't believe it, but this explanation only made things worse for arguments towards the few things kris actually shares with frisk consarn (grave) (obituary) 20:56, 24 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break 5

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  • Hi User:Archrogue, I just wanted to ask for clarification. I'm not looking to make any more arguments because I've done quite enough of that already, I just wanted to make sure I understood your comment. I was confused by I could also support something like "Kris has often been described as non-binary" because that is what B proposes. Just because there's a debate happening on the talk page doesn’t mean it belongs in the article's introduction also stood out to me because I don't believe I've seen anyone cite the talk page as a rationale for B. I also don't think anyone's said that reliable sources got it wrong. Could you help me better understand what you're referring to?  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 17:45, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note from previous closer

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Hello; I closed the previous thread. I want to provide some statistics. In 13 days, this RFC has accrued 13 participants who have produced over 10,500 words. The recent RFC on J. K. Rowling ran for 39 days, had over 90 participants, and produced 20,000 words. Any editor also passionate about statistics can see how many bytes they've added to this Talk page here. – ImaginesTigers 20:24, 20 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

hell yeah i got green (the best color) consarn (grave) (obituary) 20:27, 20 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What even is gender?

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Seeing that the discussion has unproductively fizzled out for the fourth time, I don't see how I could make things any worse, so time to dispute the definition of "gender". In order to justify this blatant derailment quick aside, I will now instruct the editor to review MOS:JARGON and WP:ONEDOWN, which together tell us that this article should use terminology that even a barely literate reader can correctly parse without additional clarification. To that end, the usage of the term "gender" presents an issue.

As I understand it, having read no poststructuralist philosophy ever, "genders" are the product of society. They are roles cast upon individuals through social mechanisms. One does not "have" a gender, but rather belongs to one of the genders that their culture has. To determine Kris's gender, one would then have to examine the relevant cultural context and determine what role they serve in society. This could go one of two ways:

  • One (who is not us) could interpret Kris from the author's cultural context. This raises the question whether US culture has non-binary gender at all. I would imagine this is a topic of controversy among academics.
  • Or one could interpret Kris from an in-universe cultural context. This raises the issue that we have very little idea regarding the topic of gender in the culture of monsters in Deltarune.

Luckily, as the title of this RfC confirms, we are not discussing Kris's gender, so we needn't concern ourselves with such vaguities. We are discussing Kris's gender identity, which should be way easier to determine, since for this, we just need to ask the subject how they personally identify. Surely, it should not birth any controversy for me to raise this issue at the tail end of a two month long argument where seemingly every participant was trying to argue about a subtly different topic.[sarcasm] This is why I propose changing the infobox to say "gender identity" instead of "gender".

Or maybe I should take this issue to a different talk page. It's quite evident that even if we ignore stiff (and non-universal) academic definitions and restrict ourselves to only examine how the term is commonly used in real life, people don't generally agree on what the term "gender" means. Worse yet is that some people tend to feel very strongly about the objective correctness of their own definitions, so articles have little leeway to make any kind of assumption regarding definitions without spawning endless flamewars in the talk pages. It could then be argued that the infobox cell is entirely inappropriate in any non-obvious context, because it will inevitably confuse readers given the lack of clear definitions, and that articles should instead try to explain these things in-text. Or there should be a "gender identity" cell instead, which would give way to almost no confusion. Though some readers may feel insulted by such a wording. Dieknon (talk) 14:36, 24 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't think changing the infobox to "gender identity" makes things any better. In fact if anything I think it makes the case not to describe Kris as nonbinary in Wikivoice stronger.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 20:10, 24 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
How so? The material difference between gender and gender identity is practically nonexistent when it comes to people outside of the gender spectrum. Typically, gender identity exists to be distinct from gender, which often is associated with a person's sex. Since non-binary sex is very specific (intersex), it's understood that non-binary gender identity basically means the same thing as non-binary gender if a person is not intersex. Cukie Gherkin (talk) 20:16, 24 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah there's no need to overcomplicate it (and even then, the notion that it could 'upset some readers' is a bit...eh?). In any event I feel the conversation's going fine, and there's no need for this tangent.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:23, 24 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]