User talk:Rangasyd
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CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 1 § Establishments in Iran, pre-1935
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A category or categories you have created have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 1 § Establishments in Iran, pre-1935 on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 01:58, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Synagogues completed in the 1200s
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Synagogues completed in the 1490s
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Synagogues completed in the 1350s
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Synagogues completed in the 1310s
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Synagogues completed in the 1340s
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Synagogues completed in the 1420s
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Disambiguation link notification for January 6
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Sunehri Bagh Masjid
[edit]Hi, what do you mean by "What is this. Not MANI or State-protected monument. Please add reference to 'listing'", from your recent edit. The citations utilised support the fact stated. Do you think there needs to be something on what a "Grade-III heritage structure" is? Regards, Aafi (talk) 07:46, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- What is a Grade III listing? Or a Grade II or a Grade IV. What does this mean? Rangasyd (talk) Rangasyd (talk) 10:36, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see, well I don't see much resources available except "Model Heritage Regulations" from Mumbai Metropolitan Region Heritage Conservation Society, which describes these structures as, "Heritage Grade-III comprises buildings and precincts of importance for townscape; that evoke architectural aesthetic, or sociological interest though not as much as in Heritage Grade-II. These contribute to determine the character of the locality and can be representative of lifestyle of a particular community or region and may also be distinguished by setting, or special character of the façade and uniformity of height, width and scale. Heritage Grade-III deserves intelligent conservation (though on a lesser scale than Grade-II and special protection to unique features and attributes)." If you think a note should work for now, I can do that. My idea was to have an entry on Heritage Grade-III structures in India, but I do not have access to much resources right now. Regards, Aafi (talk) 11:25, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- this adds a bit more to what these structures are currently facing. That's why I think a separate entry might work better. Regards, Aafi (talk) 11:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- The bottom line to this is that Grade III doesn't really mean that much, in the context of the mosque's legal 'heritage protection status'. The article that you sent me here makes it very clear that Grade III is the lowest level of protection. Perhaps if it was Grade I, it might be worthy of some discussion in the article. The Indian History Congress (a bunch of history professors [my words]) and INTACH (these heritage bodies want to protect everything [my words]) are making a big issue about nothing. The mosque is not even on INTACH's Heritage at Risk Register.
- So, how significant is Grade III? Grade III doesn't hold any legal status. If the mosque was a SPMI, a MANI or WHS, then sure, it would be a different issue. In the context of global heritage, at Grade III, the Sunehri Bagh Masjid is insignificant, in that it doesn't meet the SPMI (Government of Delhi) / MANI (Government of India) / WHS (UNESCO) thresholds. So, the questions we need to ask ourselves are:
- Why list the mosque as Grade III without context of its relative lack of importance / lack of legal protection?; and/or
- If we are to list the mosque as Grade III, then we should provide context that Grade III is a non-statutory grade of no legal standing/weight, and is the lowest level of classification, typically given by municipal authorities.
- The way it reads now is that Grade III means something (to someone). When, in effect, it really means nothing. My thoughts are to
- remove the words Grade III in both locations; especially in the lead.
- If we are to retain the mention in the *History* section, the way it reads now, especially given the preceding sentence that mentions "legal protection" is that listing as Grade III implies some form of legal protection as a result of being listed as Grade III. Hence, how do we move forward with this sentence/para. It currently reads:
- The Delhi chapter of the Indian National Trust for Art and Cultural Heritage listed the mosque as a heritage building which was worth preservation, and had filed a PIL to "ensure that such buildings were given legal protection", which subsequently led to the mosque being listed as a Grade-III heritage building in a 2009 Delhi government notification. [with reference]
- I suggest that it reads:
- The Delhi chapter of the Indian National Trust for Art and Cultural Heritage listed the mosque as a heritage building worthy of preservation. In 2009, a Delhi government notification [with reference from the Delhi Government website of the 2009 listing; not a 3rd-party site] listed the mosque as a Grade-III heritage building. This rating is the lowest level of heritage classification and has no legal standing. [with reference from The Telegraph article]
- If we can't meet the key threshold of the Delhi Govt 2009 listing as Grade III, then we should not mention Grade III at all. The paragraph should end after … INTACH … worthy of preservation. Thoughts? Rangasyd (talk) 12:24, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Should this conversation move to Talk:Sunehri Bagh Masjid? Rangasyd (talk) 12:25, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- this adds a bit more to what these structures are currently facing. That's why I think a separate entry might work better. Regards, Aafi (talk) 11:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- I see, well I don't see much resources available except "Model Heritage Regulations" from Mumbai Metropolitan Region Heritage Conservation Society, which describes these structures as, "Heritage Grade-III comprises buildings and precincts of importance for townscape; that evoke architectural aesthetic, or sociological interest though not as much as in Heritage Grade-II. These contribute to determine the character of the locality and can be representative of lifestyle of a particular community or region and may also be distinguished by setting, or special character of the façade and uniformity of height, width and scale. Heritage Grade-III deserves intelligent conservation (though on a lesser scale than Grade-II and special protection to unique features and attributes)." If you think a note should work for now, I can do that. My idea was to have an entry on Heritage Grade-III structures in India, but I do not have access to much resources right now. Regards, Aafi (talk) 11:25, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 14 § Category:1822 establishments in New Zealand
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:13th-century religious buildings and structures in Lebanon
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A barnstar for you!
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The Original Barnstar |
| You are doing a great job! Thank you and Happy editing. Baqi:) (talk) 12:49, 27 January 2025 (UTC) |
Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Mosque buildings with domes In Greece
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Category:Former religious buildings and structures in Philadelphia has been nominated for merging
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CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 February 4 § Category:Former churches by populated place
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Mosques in Dhaka Distirct
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Mosques in Sunamganj District
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Mosques in Moulvibazar District
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Mosques in Sylhet District
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Category:Byzantine mosques has been nominated for deletion
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CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 March 22 § Category:Lists of synagogues in British Overseas Territories
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CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 March 29 § British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies upmerge
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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Byzantine Revival architecture in Israel
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June 2025
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Your edit to Shrine of Abu Lu'lu'a has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for information on how to contribute your work appropriately. For legal reasons, Wikipedia strictly cannot host copyrighted text or images from print media or digital platforms without an appropriate and verifiable license. Contributions infringing on copyright will be removed. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources for more information. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 08:59, 16 June 2025 (UTC)
- For clarity's sake, I'll add that the CC BY-NC 4.0 license used by archnet.org is not compatible with Wikipedia's licensing (see WP:Compatible license). Also note that even if it would have been a CC BY or CC BY-SA (two licenses which are compatible with WP), explicit attribution to the source from which you copied would have been needed in the edit summary.
- If you should be confused as to why this constitutes a copyright violation even though you slightly modified the original text, please read Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 09:11, 16 June 2025 (UTC)
Speedy deletion nomination of Category:16th-century religious buildings and structures in Iraq
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Issues with editing mosque infoboxes
[edit]Hi Rangasyd, thanks again for your ongoing clean-up work, but please be more careful and show a bit more restraint when expanding the infoboxes of mosque articles. On more than one occasion now I've seen you add information that does not respect WP:V or WP:OR. The recurring issues are:
- The verifiability and OR problems are mainly with regards to the architectural style parameter, where you seem to just list every period mentioned in the article (and sometimes even not mentioned or contradicted by the article), not the style or period(s) that describe the current building. At best, this is confusing and excessive for an infobox, whose content should be a very basic and straightforward summary of key points in the article, per MOS:INFOBOX. As I think I've mentioned previously, if the style/period is unclear in the article, it is far better to leave this parameter blank for now (or put Islamic architecture as a placeholder).
- Please do not fill the "architecture_type" parameter with "Mosque architecture". The correct term here is Mosque, the type of building and the most relevant link. This is clearly explained by the template's guidelines and matches how this parameter is used in all religious building articles.
- Less strictly, I would discourage you from changing the lead sentence of every mosque article to include the word "Sunni" or "Shi'a/Shiite" to describe the mosque. Unless that is actually relevant to the local context (e.g., in cities with substantial Shi'a and Sunni populations and where mosque affiliation is thus important), this is at best redundant in most cases, or not something notable enough to burden the first sentence with MOS:SEAOFBLUE. Most mosques can be used by any Muslim regardless of sect, while their affiliation, such as it is, merely reflects the local majority population. In some cases, such as with mosques that have more universal religious significance, it would be controversial to unqualifiedly identify them as "Sunni" or "Shia" and I strongly discourage you from doing so unless you've discussed it with other editors.
Please respect the first two points, which typically create material that needs to be reverted later, and please take the third point into general consideration where appropriate. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 21:30, 13 July 2025 (UTC)
- Hey, thanks. I sincerely appreciate the feedback. For ease of reference, I've adjusted the above points to be numbered.
- I take your point. However, there are times where the "architectural_style" is quite clear. In those cases, I will continue to include it.
- Thanks for reminding me what the template's guidelines read, regarding the "architecture_type" parameter; also noting that the examples used in the documentation are all Christian buildings – Chapel, Basilica, Cathedral – surely, mosque, temple, synagogue, etc., would be better examples; or if Christian buildings are to be used, seminary, monastery, etc., may be better examples. (My reasoning here is that Chapel, Basilica, Cathedral are all covered by Infobox church and should not be used for this Infobox religious building. But I digress!) However, my main point is that the "architecture_type" parameter needs to be considered with the "status" parameter. The "status" parameter appears directly below the "religious_affiliation" parameter of the top of the infobox (surprisingly, the "religious_affiliation" parameter is not mandatory, whereas it is mandatory [and so is country] for Infobox church. Again, I digress); and provides high-level guidance on the building's "Ecclesiastical or organisational status"; which, I hope that you would agree, is significantly more important than it's "architecture_type". To repeat it (mosque / synagogue / temple, etc.) further down, seems redundant, based on your comments in #1 about ensuring that content in the infobox is very basic and [a] straightforward summary.
- Yes, I'm well aware of trying to limit the MOS:SEAOFBLUE, where appropriate. And, I'm also trying to develop some consistency for articles about religious buildings; e.g., its name, its rite/tradition, its religious affiliation, the building's purpose, and its location in the first sentence. And then other pertinent information to follow, e.g. age/era, style (where documented), founder, key features, designation (where documented), etc. Having reviewed inboxes for every synagogue, every mosque was next on my agenda; and who knows what will follow (Hindu temples, etc.?). I guess what I'm saying here is yes, there is some rationalisation for including Reform, Orthodox, etc., to synagogues; and hence, Twelver Shi'ite, Sufi, Sunni, etc., to mosques, in appreciation that a follower or visitor may have some interest in those factors.
- @R Prazeres: So, what is the best way forward? You may recall my requests here and here suggested rationalisation of the infobox. Hence, your feedback is not new to me. Indeed, the infobox would, IMHO, benefit from some rationalisation, such as this request where the parameters of "region", "province", and "district" are considered by most users to relate to the geographical meanings of those words, as opposed to the ecclesiastical or organisational meanings of the same words. The population of these parameters in the "religion" section of the infobox is confusing. And surely, the more simple "location" parameter would be preferred, for brevity. Even the way that the "religious_affiliation" parameter is described in the documentation is not ideal, and does not assist with producing the appropriate colour for the infobox, where the tradition/rite is known. And how often is the "cercle" parameter used? And I could go on… To cut a long story short, the Infobox could be significantly improved, in both its structure and its documentation. Who is best placed to drive well-thought out changes through consensus? Without improvement in both the documentation and the template's structure, more editors will interpret the Infobox in different ways and produce unwieldy outcomes that are difficult to unwind. All feedback is provided constructively, in the interests of making Wikipedia better. Rangasyd (talk) 02:23, 14 July 2025 (UTC)
- I was mostly concerned about the accuracy issues in #1. But for #2 (architecture_type), two quick things. First, the main problem is just that filling this parameter with "Mosque architecture", which links to Islamic architecture rather than to Mosque, is counter-intuitive to the way this parameter is used everywhere else (notwithstanding the usual minor inconsistencies across Wikipedia). So if used, it should simply say Mosque, which is clear and links to the relevant article. Second, your point about redundancy occurred to me after I wrote that comment: not only considering the "status" parameter above, as you said, but also just common sense reading of the article title and the lead sentence when these include the word "mosque". So in cases where using "architecture_type" simply creates repetition, I would recommend omitting it.
- For #3 (the religious affiliation in the lead sentence specifically), again this is a recommendation that varies from case to case, but it's a bit of WP:UNDUE overall. Whereas stating the sectarian affiliation is probably relevant in Iraq, for example, it looks tedious and undue to include the word "Sunni" in the first sentence of every Egyptian mosque article or "Shia" in the first sentence of every Iranian mosque article, as this is really just indirectly restating the local demographic majority rather than stating a notable attribute of the specific mosque. Mosques are (with exceptions) open to all Muslims for prayer and some mosques are even important to more than one sect. I'm not too worried about this inclusion either way, but I'd omit in probably most cases.
- As for the template improvements overall: yeah, I don't know what the best way forward is, though I'm happy to consult again if it comes up for discussion. Maybe it would be good to recruit some help at WP:ISLAM? Until then, I think the practical approach to follow is simply to use the parameters that, when displayed, are useful and easy for readers to understand in context, even if not perfect. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 03:40, 14 July 2025 (UTC)
- Hi @Rangasyd: can you please stop replacing the "architecture_type" infobox parameter with "Islamic architecture"? I've told you multiple times now, this is not how the parameter is meant to be used. Either put Mosque, Mausoleum, etc or leave it blank if redundant (and better yet, leave "organisational_status " blank instead as, aside from the confusing link, it's also meaningless for a mosques, for which no general organisational hierarchy exists). It's getting a little frustrating that you continue to do this, when not doing it saves both of us some work. I hope you will respect this going forward. R Prazeres (talk) 15:22, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
- Not only do you appear to have ignored the comments and explicit request above, but you now appear to be edit-warring after these changes have been explicitly reverted ([1], [2], etc). Can you please stop and acknowledge the above?
- While we're at it, please stop enlarging infobox images to upright 1.4 scale. It's completely unnecessary and makes the infoboxes enormous relative to the rest of the article. And please see MOS:CAPLENGTH about unnecesssary captions. On these details too you appear to be edit-warring ([3]). R Prazeres (talk) 07:25, 27 September 2025 (UTC)
- @R Prazeres: OK. I'm not going to be baited by your comments about edit waring.
- I'm going back to my suggestions from December 2024; and our productive discussions in July 2025. Let's try and steer this towards more productive territory; viz., User:Rangasyd/sandbox/Infobox:Religious building.
- At the heart of your issues (IMHO) are the way that the {{Infobox religious building}} currently stands. Specifically, I refer to your comments on 7 December 2024. Namely, here, where you supported my suggestion to revise the Infobox and adjust the link relating to Ecclesiastical polity from "Ecclesiastical or organizational status" to either "Ecclesiastical or organizational status" (your preferred option) or "Status" or "Type" (my preferred options). The reason why I don't like use of the term "Ecclesiastical polity" is that it specifically relates to Christianity. In the majority of cases, {{Infobox religious building}} should be used for non-Christian buildings (e.g. mosques, synagogues, temples, etc.). Hence, I prefer "Status" or "Type". To me, this is at the heart of the issue of your concerns. In other words, how the "Status" ties in with "Architectural_type".
- The issues relative to image sizing, captions, are relatively minor, which I'm more than happy to concede.
- So, let's try and work together, instead of against each other, to try and model the {{Infobox religious building}} so that it complements {{Infobox church}}. Happy to hear your constructive thoughts. Cheers. :-) Rangasyd (talk) 13:01, 27 September 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you for responding. First, I appreciate that in the last edits I linked above you at least did not restore "Islamic architecture" in the architectural_type parameter, which is still an improvement. Secondly, yes, I still agree with this suggested change (minor note: my preference was actually for the more complete change as well, not just the link adjustment). However, that was never implemented, so as it stands we continue to have the current wording linked to Ecclesiastical polity that is inappropriate/unhelpful in the context of mosques (or indeed non-Christian sites). As it stands, what all of these articles share in common is that template, whose display and instructions currently do not suggest your usage; so if you want to continue implementing this usage, we need to edit the template itself (+instructions). Otherwise, it will be equally confusing to future editors.
- Or for that matter, if the type parameter already exists to use for Shinto shrines, then maybe it's simpler to just edit the instructions to recommend that parameter for general non-Christian usage, as I also suggested in my comment at the template talk. (Since the template instructions aren't protected, perhaps the latter change would be simply a matter of one bold edit with an explanation on the talk page.)
- Let me know if you want to pursue one of these changes and would like me to help.
- In the meantime, if the template remains as is, then some clarifications: I'm not going to bother reverting the mere placement of the word "mosque" for something like this, but after seeing this usage implemented in your edits multiple times, I still think that is more confusing than leaving it under architecture_type, which displays simply as "Type". Even if the latter comes under the "Architecture" subheading, that's hardly a major difference to readers. Using organisational_status also becomes more confusing for something like this, as "mausoleum" belongs even less under that label. It also raises accuracy issues with some things, in particular for "madrasa", as "status" usually implies current use but most historic madrasa buildings no longer serve as madrasas today (with some exceptions, they've been converted to full-time mosques or other uses, or remain heritage monuments). That makes this outline more appropriate for architecture_type (which thus, again, should not be generically filled with "Islamic architecture"). Similarly, architecture_type is also appropriate to cover other things that are architecturally present but functionally obsolete; e.g., the many Mamluk religious monuments in Cairo were more often designed as madrasas with sabils, kuttabs, mausoleums etc combined, but usually serve nowadays only as mosques. So in sum: in some cases, architecture_type may be needed independently anyways; in cases where the content would be simply "mosque" and nothing more, it's less of an issue but architecture_type still looks better in use than the current organisational_status ("Ecclesiastical or organisational status"). R Prazeres (talk) 15:52, 27 September 2025 (UTC)
- @R Prazeres Howdy.
Let me know if you want to pursue one of these changes and would like me to help.
- Thanks. Yes please. As per this edit, I'd value your help to amend the template for {{Infobox religious building}} to:
- Replace the text for the "Organisational_status" parameter so that, when used, it simply displays "Type".
- Unlink all references to Ecclesiastical polity.
- Consider use of Place of worship#Types to link "Type"; or if not, make it clear in the instructions that "Type" means type of place of worship; and that Christian buildings should consider use of {{Infobox church}}, etc.
- Add relevant content on the Talk page of {{Infobox religious building}} about the changes.
- We can discuss other changes later. Over to you. Rangasyd (talk) 23:43, 27 September 2025 (UTC){{
- Hi @Rangasyd: can you please stop replacing the "architecture_type" infobox parameter with "Islamic architecture"? I've told you multiple times now, this is not how the parameter is meant to be used. Either put Mosque, Mausoleum, etc or leave it blank if redundant (and better yet, leave "organisational_status " blank instead as, aside from the confusing link, it's also meaningless for a mosques, for which no general organisational hierarchy exists). It's getting a little frustrating that you continue to do this, when not doing it saves both of us some work. I hope you will respect this going forward. R Prazeres (talk) 15:22, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
Great. The last edit request to the template was formally declined as it was about the template instructions rather than the template's source code, so I guess we need to make a specific request to change the the source. I have no experience dealing with template source code, but from a quick look at what it shows, I would imagine that what we need to request is to change these two lines:
|[[Ecclesiastical polity|Ecclesiastical or organisational status]]
|[[Ecclesiastical polity|Ecclesiastical or organizational status]]To this:
|[[Place of worship|Type]]
|[[Place of worship|Type]]Maybe preceded by a short motivation and a short description of what we want to see in the final amended template (in case the requested source change isn't quite correct and the reviewing editor can point that out). If you have more experience with this, feel free to correct this of course. Either way, I can comment below the request to add further support, or you can tag me in the request and link to this discussion to show readers that two of us have been discussing this already. How does that sound? R Prazeres (talk) 16:05, 28 September 2025 (UTC)
- PS: Keep in mind the alternative I suggested; to amend the instructions for the existing "type" parameter. That might be simpler to implement at the template itself (no need to change the source, unless we want to add the link, which is still simple), though it would need a bit of work to replace the organisational_status parameters currently in use in some articles. R Prazeres (talk) 16:12, 28 September 2025 (UTC)
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Proof of existence?
[edit]I notice you've made a number of edits to Ghayebi Dighi Mosque. What evidence do you have that there is, or ever was, such a mosque in Zakiganj Upazila? --Worldbruce (talk) 06:16, 28 September 2025 (UTC)
- This conversation has been moved to Talk:Ghayebi Dighi Mosque#Proof of existence? Please do not add comments here. Thanks. Rangasyd (talk) 07:01, 28 September 2025 (UTC)
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