Talk:Western Syria clashes

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Requested move 6 March 2025

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Western Syria clashes (December 2024–present) → Assad loyalist insurgency in Syria (December 2024–present)Assad loyalist insurgency in Syria (December 2024–present) – Since the fall of Assad, clashes between Assad loyalists and HTS/New security forces and related assassinations haven't been confined to the areas defined as "Western Syria", namely Latakia, Tartus, Western Homs and Western Hama. There have been many incidents, including clashes in other areas such as Rif Dimashq, Deir Ez-Zor, Daraa etc. As of now, there are no other articles on Wikipedia where these events can be/are being documented and the number of these incidents(both inside and outside Western Syria) are increasing every day. With multiple incidents taking place every day, which are not confined to a single region, I think we are speaking of an insurgency. Thus, the current scope of this article is insufficient to document these events and as time goes by and when the move eventually happens at this rate, the retroactive documentation overhead will be quite big.

[1]https://x.com/QalaatAlMudiq/status/1897015141155397745

[2]https://x.com/Charles_Lister/status/1897004349114683720 Xyz464 (talk) 13:43, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Rafts of Calm (talk) 14:21, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
True, they aren't all Assad loyalists. Xyz464 (talk) 14:36, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I support @Assadgaming1488's proposal, Insurgency in Syria (December 2024–present) Evaporation123 (talk) 19:26, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, it's too early for this kind of decision, so I go for Oppose. Evaporation123 (talk) 19:28, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
actually it is a soldiers of former Assad's army, so i think it is more useful than "anti government". Algirr (talk) 00:58, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
They have numerous times stated that they are not pro-Assad Assadgaming1488 (talk) 13:02, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i didn't saw any of that, can you send a link pls? Algirr (talk) 16:35, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: The article also covers killings of mostly Alawite civilians, which significantly outnumber the fatalities due to any form of insurgency. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 15:13, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It does outnumber the insurgency/clashes fatalities, but even then the current title remains misleading.
Since the absolute majority of the civilian casualties occurred due to targeted attacks and not due to being caught in the crossfire of any "clashes". Someone reading the title and then the infobox of this article might be led to believe that in its current form with the current title. Xyz464 (talk) 16:00, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What about something like Insurgency in Syria (December 2024-present), somewhat like Iraqi insurgency (2011-2013)? Assadgaming1488 (talk) 15:44, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That could work, that article could include multiple sections for each region. Xyz464 (talk) 18:13, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
it easily can be confused with insurgency during civil war (i mean until 2024), even wiki don't have article with that name. If we add something like "Assadist" or "Ba'athist in syria", it will be easier to identify. Algirr (talk) 02:55, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support, all though I feel like something along the lines of "Western Syria Insurgency" feels more accurate given that most combat is localized to Alawite areas Castroonthemoon (talk) 23:01, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we can add something like "Ba'athist insurgency in Syria (December 2024 - present)"? Algirr (talk) 01:00, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I read some are Ba'athist, but are Islamic Resistance Front in Syria that? :) Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 01:11, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
So it is just name of only one ba'athist militant group participating in clashes. But all of them (or almost all) was former soldiers of the Ba'athist SAAF. Algirr (talk) 02:53, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Islamic resistance in syria is part of SSNP which supports assad so yeah JaxsonR (talk) 04:57, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think the biggest problem is that the "Ba'athist" attachment to the name implies that the groups are being primarily led by ideological forces, which has not been confirmed. It seems as if for right now it's just being led by former regime officers Castroonthemoon (talk) 06:59, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
So, yes. They led by officers of former army of Ba'athist (!) Syria. They are former soldiers of the ba'athist Syria army. Algirr (talk) 16:36, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
to rephrase, I don't think that because they were apart of the ba'athist army that they're inherent ideological baathist; similar to how when the USSR collapsed most "political" generals joined nationalist groups, or when Ba'athist Iraq fell most of the generals formed or joined sunni / shia groups, if that makes sense Castroonthemoon (talk) 20:05, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
When Ba'athist Iraq was fallen, all former soldiers of the Ba'athist army did not immediately dissolve into nationalist and religious formations; they continued to fight for a long time under Ba'athist slogans until Saddam Hussein was captured in December of 2003 and executed 3 years later. Algirr (talk) 20:24, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is just for better understand who is they - it is not government army anymore, it is part of the regime, collapsed in December of 2024 Algirr (talk) 20:25, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support Massive skirmishes all over the country and full on warfare in alawite majority areas Yesyesmrcool (talk) 23:02, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral I think the proposed and current header are equally bad and missleading (not by intent), why? Is Assad coming back or has anyone in the loyalist side called for his return? Or what if fighting escalates beyond the geographic marker of western Syria. In either case we may end up voting for a name change again later. However by dropping the "Assad" from "Assad loyalist insurgency in Syria (December 2024–present)" you solve this issue, Say "Loyalist insurgency in Syria", confilct moves, it's still loyalist insurgency, Assad never comes back, still an Loyalist insurgency. It's still specific enough not to be mixed up with any onther ingurgency movement around. Thus focused on the 'loyalists' of the old regime, with or without Assad. Problem solved. :) --Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 00:45, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well it has spread outside of western syria, some in southern syria Yesyesmrcool (talk) 01:34, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 01:39, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support however I think a better name would be "Assadist insurgency in Syria" Completely Random Guy (talk) 03:59, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Wait it may seem like an insurgency, however most sources aren’t calling it such and that’s what’s required in order to change the name of the article. Plus, if the clashes stopped anytime soon then that would mean it wasn’t really a full blown insurgency, it’s a bit too soon. 78.182.131.45 (talk) 05:25, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Edit: Support most sources call it an insurgency now as far as i’ve searched on google 78.182.131.45 (talk) 09:43, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - this has nothing to do with Assad, and the article as a whole should not frame it that way. There are no calls for reinstating Assad, only for protecting civilians of the coast against sectarian massacres, which have been occurring for months now at the hands of the al-Qaeda successor government. Furthermore, terms like "Assadist" are neologisms not used by any objective media, including the sources used in this article, and should not be used by Wikipedia's neutral voice. FunkMonk (talk) 14:36, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    After some thought, I completely agree with you. Xyz464 (talk) 15:24, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    But almost all, who fight against Jolani's government is former soldiers of SAAF, Assad's army. Yes, mostly media say not "Assadist", they use "Assad loyalists" Algirr (talk) 16:34, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's due to the fact that, yes, all Alawites with military training were formerly in the army. That means that they're the ones who can fight and defend against Jihadi massacres, not that they want Assad reinstated. No one wants that, everyone sees Assad as a traitor. FunkMonk (talk) 15:17, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i know. And almost all fighters from HTS are actually sunnis. And of course they don't want return Assad to power, but how I said, it is former "Assad's army soldiers". Algirr (talk) 20:27, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support the move to proposed title. It's been obviously clear that several Assad loyalist cells armed and funded by the IRGC has been waging a sectarian insurgency across Western Syria since the fall of the Assad regime. The latest mass-casualty attack by Assadist militants in the town of Jableh, which has resulted in the deaths of more than 70 people is another explicit indication that the crisis in Western Syria has deteriorated into an armed insurgency.
Furthermore, several pro-Assadist and pro-Iranian terrorist groups have formed across the region, and these insurgents have posession of heavy weaponry. Ba'athist military commanders of the Assad regime are spearheading this insurgency. Additionally, these groups are also co-ordinating with arms trafficking networks affiliated with the Hezbollah organization in Lebanon.
The situation in Western Syria is undoubtedly an insurgency. "Assad loyalist insurgency in Western Syria (December 2024-present)" would be a more precise title. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 15:31, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Why does it need to be disambiguated? What's wrong with just Assad loyalist insurgency in Syria? Charles Essie (talk) 18:58, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. The disambiguation "(December 2024–present)", however, is unnecessary. Skitash (talk) 21:36, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support Its all Assad loyalists cells. Elazığ Ahmet (talk) 23:21, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so most people agree on the insurgency part of the title, but not on the classification of it.
The groups fighting against the transitional government and HTS's allied groups have all made declarations regarding their goals and reinstating Assad is not part of any declaration from any anti-government group, so I think labeling all the insurgents as Assad loyalists is not accurate.
Furthermore, the sentiment regarding Assad among many of anti-HTS/transitional government people since his fall and the events that have occurred after it has turned more negative due to feeling of "abandonement" felt by their side due to the nature of his fall, especially his unannounced sudden escape.
So, currently what is common between all the groups/people fighting against the transitional government and its allied groups is an anti-government sentiment.
Syria anti-government clashes (December 2024–present) or Insurgency in Syria (December 2024-present) seem to be better titles. Xyz464 (talk) 21:16, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support for the name change, but I rather propose names Assadist insurgency in Syria or just Insurgency in Syria (2024–present) (with/without month name) Ahammed Saad (talk) 04:59, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the move as the current name works fine. I would also like to express my opposition to renaming it Insurgency in Syria (December 2024-present). What sense does that make when the clashes are only happening in the country's western regions? Sisuvia (talk) 12:55, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support with a coup attempt in damascus it is safe to say that the Assadist insurgents aren't just localized to the Alawite coast. Scuba 15:49, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. GreatLeader1945 TALK 20:59, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose WP:OR. Reliable sources note that many of the groups involved were former loyalists but this sort of wording (and a lot of the wording in the article) isn't accurate.
Things we know about the rebels:
1) Many of them are Alawite.
2) Many of them were loyal to the Ba'athist government prior to December.
3) They oppose the Syrian transitional government.
Things we do not know and should not state in the article:
4) That they are Assadist and have the goal of reinstating Assad into power
5) They currently hold Ba'athist views and wish to reestablish a Ba'athist government
6) They primarily use the two-star flag of the Ba'athist period.
Need to be very careful about making assumptions in a rapidly developing situation and this proposal would worsen matters. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 02:05, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support - less ambiguous and more descriptive. I'd recommend we remove the dates "(December 2024–present)" since this is the only "Assad loyalist insurgency in Syria" 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 08:55, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Xyz464 (talk) 21:18, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Please see my comment and suggested title above. There is a WP:NPOV problem with the proposed title, as it frames the conflict as Assad loyalists fighting the new government. While this narrative has some support, the conflict can also be seen as sectarian violence and involving Alawites with no loyalty to the previous regime simply fighting to defend their communities. Rafts of Calm (talk) 13:05, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Assadists on the Lebanese-Syrian border and in Talfita, North Damascus

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It should be added that Assadists are active on the Lebanese-Syrian border and that they were active in Talfita. 2A02:3100:240E:9800:1198:EC80:9C5:A8D4 (talk) 20:08, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 20:10, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Here the source:https://www.odatv.com/guncel/hepsi-teslim-oldu-denildi-esad-askerleri-ortaya-cikti-en-son-kursun-kendimize-odatv-videolarini-yayimliyor-120075935 77.11.82.30 (talk) 20:52, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I dont understand turkish + please read WP:EDITXY 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 20:57, 15 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It could be, but as a standalone page until the problem of insurgency in the coastal regions or insurgency throughout Syria is resolved. Farcazo (talk) 00:40, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Syrian Civil War map (ISW-CTP).svg
Even on the map of the Syrian Civil War a small insurgency appears in such in Talfita Farcazo (talk) 01:38, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Foreign Shia Support

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Does it make sense to include these groups in the belligerents section, even though they weren't involved in the clashes at all? In fact, there aren't any reports of their presence inside Syria, let alone Western Syria.

Also Hezbollah shouldn't be listed alone, but instead with the additional context/subsection that the people involved in clashes are Lebanese Bekaa tribesmen affilliated with Hezbollah. Xyz464 (talk) 11:29, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the groups shouldn't be listed, unless they are directly involved. David O. Johnson (talk) 00:37, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
their inclusion seems to make more sense if the page was re-titled honestly Castroonthemoon (talk) 08:10, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Or maybe why not make a page about what is currently happening in Iraq after the fall of Assad, because there is a page about the spillover of the Syrian Civil War in Iraq, because we have to Kataib Sarkhat al-Quds, Guardians of Truth Battalions, Abbas Shield Martyrdom Forces and Ya Ali Popular Formations. Farcazo (talk) 22:46, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think that would be a great idea but WP:NOR is important to consider Castroonthemoon (talk) 01:37, 9 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]