Template talk:IPA non-pulmonic consonants

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Edit request

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edit request: bilabial ejective fricative ɸʼ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:fea8:2cdf:efc5:ed42:7a51:4231:a10c (talk) 05:04, 11 January 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

We don't include sounds that are not attested in any language. The article Bilabial ejective fricative is a substub with no citation. We might as well delete it or turn it into a redirect. Nardog (talk) 13:27, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

velar vs uvular clicks

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@Nardog: hey, the cells are too tight for both. Should we widen the table, or have separate velar and uvular click sections? — kwami (talk) 07:23, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not so sure if we need the closure components at all. The official IPA chart certainly doesn't have them. Nardog (talk) 07:27, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Handbook requires them. What the Chart calls 'clicks' aren't consonants at all, just the releases. As elsewhere, the simplification of the Chart can be misleading here. — kwami (talk) 07:30, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a source that explicitly says that? The wording on p. 10 of the Handbook strikes me as saying the velar/uvular symbol is merely optional: Since any click involves a velar or uvular closure, it is possible to symbolize factors such as voicelessness, voicing, or nasality of the click by combining the click symbol with the appropriate velar or uvular symbol. Nardog (talk) 07:34, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It just says it's possible, which it is. That's like saying since any affricate involves a fricative release, it's possible to symbolize such factors as sibilance or laterality by combining the onset symbol with the appropriate fricative symbol. That wouldn't mean the fricative symbol was optional. On p. 20–21 they give the format for clicks, and all examples (which are either velar tenuis or velar oral aspirated) explicitly write the 'k'. — kwami (talk) 07:43, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In Sands ed. (2020) Click Consonants (vol. 15 of Brill's 'Empirical Approaches to Linguistic Theory'), Table 1.4 "ǃXóõ click accompaniments contrastive for dorsal place" has Ladefoged & Traill's 1994 transcription alongside Traill's practical orthography and Sands' reanalysis after going over the original recordings. Sands has worked with Miller and has commented on her findings mentioned above. Where L&T had <kǃ qǃ gǃ ɢǃ gǃh ɢǃh>, omitting the tie-bars, Sands has <ᵏǃ qǃ ᶢǃ ɴɢǃ ᶢᵏǃʰ ɴqǃʰ>, using superscripts rather than tie-bars, but still making the velar articulation explicit. So that's still best-practice in 2020, and so there's no reason to modify the convention spelled out in the IPA Handbook. — kwami (talk) 01:45, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible to say ʞ?

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Why is ʞ is a shaded area if shaded areas are impossible to say? If it is possible to say, why is it in a shaded box? Should it be in a different position? Currently, its position in the chart is illogical.1.127.108.215 (talk) 19:44, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

you have a point. it's not really a velar click, but a velar release. any suggestions for fixing it? — kwami (talk) 07:33, 10 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add Voiced Labial-velar implosive

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The voiced labial-velar implosive /ɠ͡ɓ/ has an article that has been patrolled. I would suggest adding it to this table. PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 21:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added to {{IPA co-articulated consonants}}. Nardog (talk) 00:24, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add the Uvular lateral ejective affricate

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The uvular lateral ejective affricate /q𝼄ʼ/ has a patrolled article on it, but is not on this chart. – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 15:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PharyngealImplosive7 okay, where should it go? Please be specific about what you are requesting --DannyS712 (talk) 05:48, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DannyS712: Sorry for not being specific. It should go in the "U" (uvular) column and the lateral affricate row of the ejective section. Also, please remember to put the symbol of the sound in an "IPA link" template when placing it in the table. – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 06:20, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PharyngealImplosive7 and what is the symbol to use? Please provide the exact wikitext that you want added to the table cell --DannyS712 (talk) 17:01, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DannyS712: The exact wikitext is {{IPA link}} with q𝼄ʼ as the first parameter – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 17:12, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Special:Diff/1199679395 DannyS712 (talk) 17:56, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DannyS712: I see that you have added the sound into Template:IPA non-pulmonic consonants/table, but the sound doesn't seem to be showing up on the actual table (Template:IPA non-pulmonic consonants). Any idea why that is the case? – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 18:36, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PharyngealImplosive7 just needed to purge the page, its there now DannyS712 (talk) 18:43, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, my mistake. Thanks anyways. – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 18:43, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template-protected edit request on 9 August 2025

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Remove the epiglottal ejective stop and the epiglottal column (titled EG) from the table. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Epiglottal ejective stop which deleted that article. – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 22:03, 9 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'll ping @Kwamikagami. BodhiHarp (talk) 22:55, 9 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i have no idea how to edit the table, or even where it is -- the data is not here. — kwami (talk) 01:39, 10 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think the data is at Template:IPA non-pulmonic consonants/table – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 02:28, 10 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
thanks. i removed the column. — kwami (talk) 03:24, 10 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's still there on the audio version. BodhiHarp (talk) 19:07, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Kwamikagami: – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 19:13, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i'm not seeing it. is that a different module? i don't see a likely suspect in the template category — kwami (talk) 21:53, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@BodhiHarp: – PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 22:28, 19 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's at Template:IPA non-pulmonic consonants/audiotable and I have removed it. BodhiHarp (talk) 00:45, 20 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
thanks.
i added both to the IPA chart category so they'll be easier to find. — kwami (talk) 02:24, 20 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Template-protected edit request on 11 September 2025

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could we move the implosives up, between the ejectives and clicks? implosives and ejectives have a lot in common, to the point of being allophonic in some languages, so it would make sense to put them together. also, the implosives get kinda lost under all the clicks. i'd do it myself, but i'm afraid it would mess up how the table displays when only some consonants are called. — kwami (talk) 01:09, 12 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Can't you edit the page yourself though? If this is to discuss, why not do a regular discussion? BodhiHarp 01:54, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
read what i wrote, and you'll understand — kwami (talk) 03:15, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
 In progress: An editor is implementing the requested edit. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 09:47, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Kwamikagami, does the way the changes look in Template:IPA non-pulmonic consonants/testcases work for you? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 10:10, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
beautiful -- thanks — kwami (talk) 17:49, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
now that i see how to do it, i moved the implosives to the top, where they fit even better
for the audio table, expanded by one cell to save 3 rows, tho there's some complication where the sound file for the retro click doesn't display as it does in the article - perhaps BodhiHarp can fix this in the coding they've been working on — kwami (talk) 18:22, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That works with me, I'll implement it! For the audio one (which is only semi-protected), I'm wondering if aligning the cells with their places of articulations like on the main table could be a good idea? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:24, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I think about it, positioning implosives on top makes even more sense given the similarity of voiceless implosives to ejectives. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:27, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
implosives may vary as ejectives, and ejectives as clicks, but afaik not implosives with clicks, so i think that order makes sense cross-linguistically as well
i did try aligning them a bit in the audio table, but doing that completely would require making the table a lot wider
implosives should presumably be at the top of the audio table too — kwami (talk) 18:32, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
 Done for the main template. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:37, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
the audio table looks good - the missing audio link needs to be fixed elsewhere — kwami (talk) 18:59, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I've tested an alternate version with the POAs at Template:IPA non-pulmonic consonants/audiotable/sandbox, feel free to revert if that isn't to your liking. Probably best to make new test cases before implementing it. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:05, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i think maybe others should decide whether they want better alignment or the more compact table — kwami (talk) 19:10, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Adding linguolabials to this template

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@Kwamikagami I propose that we add a linguolabial click to this template, which occurs paralinguistically. BodhiHarp 01:56, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Kwamikagami Let's discuss this. BodhiHarp 18:39, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
where would it go — kwami (talk) 19:00, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The linguolabials would go between the labiodentals and dentals. BodhiHarp 19:06, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
you say 'linguolabials' in the plural -- what would make it plural — kwami (talk) 19:07, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I meant the column. BodhiHarp 19:08, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
so a whole new column for 1 barely notable symbol? seems like overkill — kwami (talk) 19:12, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Then how should we include it? BodhiHarp 19:12, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
i don't see a good way — kwami (talk) 19:14, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe when the article Draft:Linguolabial click is ready, we could add it to this template. BodhiHarp 19:16, 11 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]