This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Muhammad Ali article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the subject of the article.
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Muhammad Ali was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Maryum Ali was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 15 August 2011 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Muhammad Ali. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
Veronica Porché Ali was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 26 September 2023 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Muhammad Ali. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
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Cover more about where Ali initially trained -- the Columbia Gym which was in the basement of Columbia Auditorium (now a part of Spalding University and is a key building in a NRHP multiple resources area).
Someone needs to look at the the Economist article that states Ali took over 200,000 hits in his career. Assuming it just refers to his professional career, that would work out to over 3,000 hits per fight, a simply ludicrous number that can't possibly be true. Even if he took 1/10th that many hits, it would still be a huge number for a heavyweight.
Plagiarism: Ali recited a poem and claimed to have written it himself: [1]
"I just wrote a poem the other day entitled 'Truth.'"
The words he delivered so beautifully are from a teacher of Universal Sufism, named Hazrat Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan. They appear in his collected "Sayings" in "Nirtan: Dance / Alankaras: The fanciful expression of an idea." You can find it in context here.
The more I research Ali, the more it occurs to me that he saw himself as an ambassador for his hometown of Louisville. We should find a way to fit in coverage of that.
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Michael Deacon (March 28, 2015). "My Wikipedia page is completely wrong, but I can't be caught correcting it". The Telegraph. Retrieved March 29, 2015. Once, when I was working at a men's magazine, a colleague was compiling a quiz about Muhammad Ali. As a test, I inserted a banal lie into Ali's Wikipedia biography (I said a species of rose, rosa ali, is named after him). Innocently my colleague incorporated the lie into his quiz. Ten years later, on Ali's frequently updated Wikipedia page, that lie is still there.
Cover more about where Ali initially trained -- the Columbia Gym which was in the basement of Columbia Auditorium (now a part of Spalding University and is a key building in a NRHP multiple resources area).
Someone needs to look at the the Economist article that states Ali took over 200,000 hits in his career. Assuming it just refers to his professional career, that would work out to over 3,000 hits per fight, a simply ludicrous number that can't possibly be true. Even if he took 1/10th that many hits, it would still be a huge number for a heavyweight.
Plagiarism: Ali recited a poem and claimed to have written it himself: [2]
"I just wrote a poem the other day entitled 'Truth.'"
The words he delivered so beautifully are from a teacher of Universal Sufism, named Hazrat Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan. They appear in his collected "Sayings" in "Nirtan: Dance / Alankaras: The fanciful expression of an idea." You can find it in context here.
The more I research Ali, the more it occurs to me that he saw himself as an ambassador for his hometown of Louisville. We should find a way to fit in coverage of that.
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I reviewed the list (above or at Talk:Muhammad Ali/to do) and some of the issues seem to be resolved:
The white devil stuff has changed significantly from the quotes in the list and most has been moved to Religious views of Muhammad Ali. I think we can consider this done.
Columbia Gym still could be added.
I read the Economist article that says "He absorbed 200,000 hits across his career." It's a review of the biography "Ali: A Life" by Jonathan Eig. I would guess the source is that biography, but it doesn't explicitly say that. The argument against it in the to-do list doesn't consider blows in sparing or his amateur career but it does seem to be an extraordinary number. To keep it, I think we should find a stronger source than this book review.
The article no longer mentions four brothers. It does mention a sister, Eva, but I think that is referring to Ali's father's sister, Eva Clay Waddel. I think we can consider this done, although clarifying who Eva was a sister of would be an improvement.
I'm not going to comment on that poem.
I don't think the article needs anything about Ali as an ambassador for Louisville to be added, but if anyone wants to write something about that I'd encourage it. Can we remove this item from the list?
That's why I'm discussing it here. I would like to remove the first item and make the changes I suggested for the third and fourth so they can be removed. If anyone has an opinion on the last item, this is the place to share it.--Jahalive (talk) 19:47, 29 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If you see that an item is done, you can either strike through it or remove it, and the best practice is to say why in your edit summary. As for the last item, I added that, and I would object to removing it as it has not been done. There's no problem caused by having undone to-do items shown on a talk page. Stefen 𝕋ower's got the power!!1!Gab • Gruntwerk20:01, 29 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I look for photos of Ali that did not comply with US copyright formalities, here are some of the best I found. I posted more about many public domain photos of boxing through the 80s here
Personally a fan of the colored one from 1962. Every other one (other than 1976 when he was a shell of what he used to be) is in black and white, making this one a lot better, so I think we should change it to that. Wcamp9 (talk) 18:42, 29 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how this went from having an opinion to changing it without getting anyone else's input. I prefer the one the article has been using for the longest time because it shows Ali at both his boxing prime and activist prime. A color image in and of itself isn't superior. Stefen 𝕋ower's got the power!!1!Gab • Gruntwerk19:36, 29 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The current image quality is just not that great, someone pointed out before it even looks like a mugshot. Sure, he was in his prime in 1967, but does the photo really show that? It doesn't show his body at all and I don't see how it helps understand his activism in 1967 REAL💬⬆22:17, 29 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think the image quality is actually ideal for a black-and-white snapshot. It demonstrates his personality well without hearing him speak. Knowing the image was from his prime is the point and what I think we should be representing. The last replacement image was from his very early career, pre-activism. If a "better" image can be found from around the same time as the current, longstanding one, I could favorably consider that. Stefen 𝕋ower's got the power!!1!Gab • Gruntwerk23:35, 29 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't see how it demonstrates his personality, there is no context, we don't even know when in 1967 the photo was taken or what was happening, for example I think this photo of Malcolm X helps understand immediately that he was an activist.
I would also argue it doesn't show the side of Ali you see when he smiled. The last image here is one of my favorites, it was taken in March 1967, but unfortunately I could not find a high quality scan of it
Yes, I agree. I think the image in the middle is good but we can't use an artifically colorized version. Still leaning toward the 1962 colored one Wcamp9 (talk) 14:45, 1 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As lead images, both are unacceptable. As I stated below, a 1962 pre-Ali, pre-Muslim, pre-Liston, pre-draft-issue image is unacceptable for this subject, and re: both images, we must avoid decorating the article. Ali when he was Cassius Clay in a modeling pose doesn't convey the subject well, and Ali was rarely photographed with a cowboy hat. I'm open-minded to a change, but better image candidates need to be found. Stefen 𝕋ower's got the power!!1!Gab • Gruntwerk19:03, 1 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
True, but it's problematic for this article, as it is an image from before he changed his name and his religion, before his fame-making Liston fight, and well before his activism (a large part of who he was). It's arguably even problematic for the boxing career article since it's pre-Liston. Stefen 𝕋ower's got the power!!1!Gab • Gruntwerk18:21, 30 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I think its a lot better for both the infobox image and the timing really does not matter for an image of Ali's caliber. The photo in 1967 would make sense in his prime if it wasn't just a regular photo of him, while the image from 1962 shows what he really does -- boxing. It describes him a lot more in one image. Wcamp9 (talk) 14:49, 1 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Encyclopedically, would we use an image of FDR or Lincoln a couple years out of high school (Ali graduated Central in 1960) as the lead image if it was perceived as the best one? Also, Ali is widely known for both boxing and activism - he really did both of these things. Last, images in an encyclopedia are not for decoration - they are for assisting the conveying of information. I insist we use or find an image that finds him at his height of both boxing and activism. I am not married to the current one, but it is longstanding, widely recognized, and works well. I am open-minded to a suitable replacement. A 1962 pre-Ali, pre-Muslim, pre-Liston, pre-draft-issue image is unacceptable for this subject. Stefen 𝕋ower's got the power!!1!Gab • Gruntwerk18:51, 1 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There is a strict policy of hijabs for women in Islam.[5] However, I also agree that this enlightening fact about Ali's wives and daughters should be in word evidence and just picture evidence, and would like to find something like a scholar or journalist noting it.MyGosh789 (talk) 17:39, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
On your first sentence, I reply "Really, Columbo?" but also it's commonly known that not all Muslim women follow this policy. Overall, you would need strong, reliable secondary coverage of what policy Ali had regarding what his wives wear (because the article is about him, not his wives) to even think of adding it to the article. Brief mentions here and there won't cut it. Stefen 𝕋owers among the rest!Gab • Gruntwerk17:43, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Even though not all Muslim women follow it, the religion is indeed strict about it.[6] However, I do agree that it would be neccessary to not just include picture evidence.MyGosh789 (talk) 17:54, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
For our purposes here, who cares if the religion is strict about it? (and why do you keep repeating that like I was just born?) This is not a discussion board. We are only here to discuss how to cover the subject (Ali, not his wives) in the article. Stefen 𝕋owers among the rest!Gab • Gruntwerk17:58, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This is a biography of Ali, not his wives and daughters. What they did or didn't wear is off-topic, and quite possibly a violation of WP:BLP policy as an invasion of privacy of non-notable individuals. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:33, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is enlightening, when considering Islam's public hijab policy for women.[7] Ali was after all of the Muslim faith. However, I agree that it should also be in words and not just pictures.MyGosh789 (talk) 17:36, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea who you think you are agreeing with. This isn't a biography of Ali's wives or his daughters, and any discussion of what they wore, even with a source, is off-topic for this article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:43, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@MyGosh789, it would seem a little odd to include this per AndyTheGrump and Stefen 𝕋owers. I would also add that at that period in time, as now, the hijab is a personal choice and I wouldn't think twice about a Muslim woman NOT wearing the hijab. Knitsey (talk) 17:45, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is not just a "personal choice." A decision for a Muslim woman to not wear a hijab would in fact be a secular personal choice. The religion is strict about hijabs.[8] However, I agree that it should be included with words from reliable sources and not just pictures.MyGosh789 (talk) 17:49, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Again, this article is about Ali, not his wives. You could only theoretically include well sourced content on if Ali had some kind of marital policy on what his wives wore or didn't wear. You cannot change the subject and dive into coverage of these separate individuals just because you find text describing what they wore. Stefen 𝕋owers among the rest!Gab • Gruntwerk17:54, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to engage in arguments about whether Muslim women in the west are required to wear the hijab as there are many differing opinions on this. It is not unusual for Muslim women in the west to not to wear a hijab. It doesn't belong in the article because as above by other editors. We shouldn't be commenting on any women's wearing on not wearing of a hijab unless it's something they have been very vocal about. We wouldn't add this to to (for example) Kosar Ali or Shazia Mirza so why on earth would you think it is appropriate for an article about Muhammad Ali. Knitsey (talk) 17:58, 4 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: It's not clear what "photo of Ali" you want to change. If you mean the photo in the infobox, a portrait like the current one is superior to an action shot. The photo of Ali standing over Liston is already in the article. Day Creature (talk) 14:23, 29 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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Not done: It's not clear what "photo of Ali" you want to change. If you mean the photo in the infobox, a portrait like the current one is superior to an action shot. The photo of Ali standing over Liston is already in the article. Day Creature (talk) 14:23, 29 August 2025 (UTC)