Template talk:MOS-TRANS

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the MOS-TRANS template.

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This template was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: Keep, 2018 December 6, see discussion. No consensus, 2013 November 23, see discussion.

POV/NPOV, as per Knowledgekid87

I'm making a new suggestion to discuss Knowledgekid87's comment that there are POV issues here. Speaking for myself, I"m not seeing it, but I'm listening. --j⚛e decker^talk 19:13, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The only issue I have with it is the notaforum wording: "This is not a forum for general discussion about MOS-TRANS, gender, or sex. Any such comments may be removed or refactored." Per this discussion here with similar wording Template talk:MOS-TW#Removal of possible WP:POV statement. No other template I know of lists specific things not to discuss about at the very least it is WP:BEANS - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:24, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cool. I have mixed feelings (and will call myself neutral about) including/excluding something of that general nature.

As to a general NOTAFORUM sort of notice: I can see your BEANS argument (and perhaps supplant it with a CREEP one, too), but, on the other hand, it is my recollection that I saw a lot of political speechifying and arguments against MOS:IDENTITY before MOS-TW/TM existed. I'm not sure which is better, but there was a problem before the notices existed.

As for any wording issues, if what we're saying goes beyond the basic meaning of WP:NOTADVOCATE part 1, I'd have no issue with rewording. I suspect (based on past experience and AGF) that if the text is picking out certain types of advocacy it was largely based on the experience of what sorts of advocacy were being seen over and over again, and wanting to make the advocacy issue clear.

In any case, I"m calling myself neutral on those.

Thanks for the explanation! Cheers, --j⚛e decker^talk 20:05, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Extending the template to allow for additional CTOPs within the same CT notice

Right now, the template will automatically transclude the {{Contentious topics/talk notice|gg}}, but no option to have it contain multiple CTOPs, which while rarer, is sometimes relevant.

So, I was working on extending the template to allow this to be possible, so that people don't need to manually embed this and the {{subst:ct/tn}} template separately for such cases. I've added the new functionality to the sandbox I created for the template at Template:MOS-TRANS/sandbox and also created a whole collection of test cases for all existing functionality, as well as the added one at the newly created Template:MOS-TRANS/testcases page.

The new functionality is usable via:

• {{MOS-TRANS|addct1=at|addct2=ap|addct3=blp}}

as a named numeric parameter, so it allows adding x additional WP:CTOPs of addctX shape. This allows us to keep the regular positional parameters (1= being used for gender, 2= being used to display additional text in the WP:NOTFORUM box) open in case we want to expand them in the future.

Since this template is currently used on over 900 pages according to Template:MOS-TRANS - Link Count, I figured I'd raise this here first per WP:TPECON instead of boldly making the change to the template. On that note, the template wasn't actually tagged with the Template:ArbCom template, but given that it's primary/co-primary reason is to inform editors to respect our WP:DEADNAME/MOS:MISGENDER guidelines, as well as auto-embedding the WP:CT/GG GENSEX Arbitration Enforcement talk header, I figured it probably should be, Template:MOS-TRANS/doc: so I added it and will ping ArbCom about this edit here, and as a co-question, whether the template should be template protection as it's a little bit WP:HIGHRISK with the impact it has on alerting editors on almost 1000 pages to the CTOP. Though it actually appears to never have been vandalized yet, knock on wood. If this question/request results in the template being template protected, please consider this request the {{edit template-protected}} (I can tag the thread retroactively too I guess if that happens). Thanks for your time.

Now to the shiny demo (if someone else gets excited to see a template, that is :)) - Here's how the change looks in action:

{{MOS-TRANS|addct1=blp |forum=no}}

Side by side comparison

{{MOS-TRANS}}

{{MOS-TRANS/sandbox}}

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. The entire page relates to the following contentious topics: Gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them Articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more transgender people. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses. If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBTQ+ WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. The entire page relates to the following contentious topics: Gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them Articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more transgender people. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses. If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBTQ+ WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard.

You can find additional samples of how it would be used at the test page here: Template:MOS-TRANS/testcases#Additional CTOP codes which shows you side-by-side difference between the current live Template:MOS-TRANS and the modified TEMPLATE:MOS-TRANS/sandbox version.

Here is the diff of the actual code portion:

• Live diff link: Template:MOS-TRANS and Template:MOS-TRANS/sandbox: Difference between pages - Wikipedia
• Manual diff for posterity:

−

{{#ifeq: {{yesno-yes|{{{DS|{{{ds}}}}}}}} | no || {{Contentious topics/talk notice|gg}} }}

+

{{#ifeq: {{yesno-yes|{{{DS|{{{ds}}}}}}}} | no || {{#invoke:params|sequential|setting|h/i/p/f|[|][|: |]|with_name_matching|^addct%d+$|renaming_by_invoking|string|replace|4|^addct(%d+)$|%1|1|false|squeezing|concat_and_call|Contentious topics/talk notice|gg}} }}

Raladic (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

While it transcludes an arbitration template, I don't think it should be tagged as an {{Arbitration Committee process template}} because of the non-arbitration material about, inter alia, MOS:GENDERID and WP:LGBTQ+. Instead, I'd just put a notice that it should not be edited in a way which causes the talk notice to be removed from pages without notifying WT:AC/C. ~ Jenson (SilverLocust 💬) 03:52, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good, I'll leave off the ArbCom template then and instead put an invisible editor notice to that effect into it and on the doc page. Thanks for popping in here. Raladic (talk) 04:04, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@SilverLocust Done - Docs page & Template itself referencing the new docs section I made at Template:MOS-TRANS/doc#Template editor notice.

I also referenced your note here to that effect. Thanks for your comment and I saw you raised the protection to ECP. Thanks :)

I'll wait to see if there's any more comments from someone with regards to my code update above and will then place it into the template in a few days. Raladic (talk) 04:41, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Raladic: I saw your proposal while doing routine checks on Module:Params, and so I corrected a few things. The edit summary should explain the details. --Grufo (talk) 00:29, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much @Grufo - I used the renaming_by_invoking as I followed the example at Module:Params#renaming_by_invoking which does just that. We should probably remove that example there and replace it with something else and add a note pointing to use Module:Params#renaming_by_replacing instead as you did.

Thanks for making the improvement to the call :) Raladic (talk) 00:46, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Good point about the example under renaming_by_invoking. I changed it now. --Grufo (talk) 01:26, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Great, thanks for the quick follow up :) Raladic (talk) 01:49, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]