Template talk:Cyrillic navbox

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Red links? Redirects?

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Opening up a discussion about the scope of this navbox, as it is already moving rapidly towards the situation of the old Cyrillic alphabet sidebar which was deleted earlier this year: that's to say it includes a lot of red links, a lot of redirects, as well as embeded images that link nowhere.

The major question as I see it is what the threshold that a letter should pass to be included, in other words, should we include red links? Should we include redirects?

My position is that we shouldn't include either. Including a letter like Komi Dje (as of now a redirect, which I expect to remain that way) which was partially adopted for a period of 10 years and then abandoned is confusing and obscures the purpose of the navbox, which in my view is an aid to navigating between information on different Cyrillic alphabets and the most common letters which are used by them. I don't see any utility in trying to duplicate List of Cyrillic letters, especially in a format that doesn't allow any annotation.

Underswamp (talk) 15:21, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Redlinks currently present should be commented out until the article is created, as they are covered in reliable sources. I have specifically included the embedded images as they link to actual articles. Redirects should generally not be included unless the subject of the redirect can be shown to be notable and have its own article. I specifically re-added Komi Dje to be consistent with the whole series of "Molodtsov letters", which I believe once had an article but was merged into Komi alphabets. We should also establish notability criteria for letters, as they are distinct enough from the GNG in terms of this. 🪐Kepler-1229b | talk | contribs🪐 18:50, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If we are talking one or two red links that's fine, but a sea of red links makes this template unhelpful. The same thing for commented out text, where some is fine, but a giant wall of text makes it much harder to edit. The edit history, or if needed, a post here, can be where you can list any non-links.
In the end the navbox should only include links to articles, no section links, no repeated links and no redirects. Per WP:BIDIRECTIONAL, the navbox should be placed on the pages it links to. Gonnym (talk) 10:26, 6 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I would remove all redlinks, because determining notability of obsure letters (i.e. finding enough sources or failing to do so) can be quite difficult. The article creators should prove the topic's notability by finding enough sources and referencing them, and then the letter could be added to the navbox. In the same spirit, I would also remove all redirects. Janhrach (talk) 18:31, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yus

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@Theknightwho: this is a navigation template; its purpose is to list articles, not letters. Janhrach (talk) 20:43, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Janhrach I don't see why that justifies only having one link per article. It's fairly obvious that the Yus article should be split, but even if that weren't the case, grouping them together as "Yus" in a list of letters is not helpful. Also, I disagree that "its purpose is to list articles, not letters" - it's quite clearly intended to give both, and any user unfamiliar with the system will be looking at a list of letters with links, and is unlikely to care if some links go to the same place. Theknightwho (talk) 20:45, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NAV: A navigation template is a grouping of links used in multiple related articles to facilitate navigation between those articles (emphasis mine). The purpose is to aid navigation, not to act as a transcludable version of List of Cyrillic letters. I do not think linking to the same article twice aids navigation. If you would like to split Yus, go for it. Janhrach (talk) 20:55, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Janhrach You addressed absolutely nothing I said.
It doesn't aid navigation to unexpectedly treat Ѫ and Ѧ differently to every other letter in the list, and they went to different redirects for obvious reasons. If it were just a list of articles, then we would simply list them by name without giving the letters at all, so given we don't do that, unexpectedly grouping them together makes absolutely no sense. Theknightwho (talk) 21:54, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also, WP:NAV explicitly states "Likewise, redirects should also normally be avoided for the reasons outlined in WP:NAVNOREDIRECT. The general exception to this is when the redirect represents a distinct sub-topic of an article rather than simply being an alternative name." Emphasis mine. Theknightwho (talk) 22:00, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
to unexpectedly treat Ѫ and Ѧ differently to every other letter in the list – We do the same for Cyrillic O variants and implicitly for other letters; e.g. not including ѽ in the template, because it is covered at Omega (Cyrillic), which is included.
If it were just a list of articles, then we would simply list them by name – I do not think this is sound reasoning.
Also, WP:NAV explicitly states [...] – I wasn't aware of this, but that doesn't change my opinion. (Actually, I thought it was the opposite, because of this edit by Gonnym, who is a much more experienced editor than me.) Janhrach (talk) 07:52, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Redirects, section links, repeated links, red links, external links - all of these should never be used in a good navigation template. The purpose of a navigation template, is to navigate between articles. Gonnym (talk) 08:19, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Gonnym They're not repeated if they're dealing with separate topics within the same article, as neatly expressed by that sentence. Clearly the point of navboxes is to navigate between content, not merely articles, so I don't buy that argument at all in this case, given the two letters are clearly separate subtopics of that article. Quite honestly, this edit referred to earlier was completely unhelpful for anyone trying to find information about those topics. Theknightwho (talk) 11:29, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to reverse a few more removals of letters, as I myself have found it extremely annoying that arbitrary letters are missing at random from the navbox when trying to use it. The fact that you were guessing which letters can and can't be merged ("I guess the situation with reverse yu is the same") does not inspire confidence in your ability to judge which letters are and aren't appropriate to display. Theknightwho (talk) 10:23, 31 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]