Talk:Nuclear weapons and Israel

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New Feb 2015 release

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Is this story relevant enough to add a new section to the article? (Report: http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/02/12/nuc%20report.pdf) ( Article: http://rt.com/usa/232203-us-israel-nuclear-weapon/) Released by the US government Defense Department as the result of a federal lawsuit. The lawsuit began as a FOI request three years ago by Grant Smith of Washing think-tank "Research: Middle Eastern Policy". "the US government agreed to release a 1987 Defense Department report detailing US assistance to Israel in its development of a hydrogen bomb, which skirted international standards... Israelis are "developing the kind of codes which will enable them to make hydrogen bombs. That is, codes which detail fission and fusion processes on a microscopic and macroscopic level,” said the report, "It's our basic position that in 1987 the Department of Defense discovered that Israel had a nuclear weapons program, detailed it and then has covered it up for 25 years in violation of the Symington and Glenn amendments"". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.103.17.108 (talk) 20:21, 17 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

to the wikipedia zionists, nothing will ever be relevant enough to prove the obvious. In some tiny speck on the map some people have a problem with reality. --91.60.149.65 (talk) 16:35, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program [1] Ward Arminius (talk) 18:18, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
File of 1987: "Critical Technological Assessment in Israel and NATO Nations" [2] 109.202.107.15 (talk) 11:28, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is very relevant in that it does away with all this pathetic ambiguous phrasing. Isr. works on boosted nukes period. No room left for the possibility that Isr. does not possess nukes. None at all. 213.136.77.237 (talk) 11:41, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Arab League position

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I propose to add a section on the Arab League position on Israel's nuclear program. It would take a little research, but would include the Middle East decision at the 1995 NPT Review and Extension Conference, proposals for a Middle East Nuclear Weapons Free Zone or a Middle East Zone Free of WMD, and the latest announcement that Arab states would withdraw from the NPT if Israel acknowledged having nuclear weapons Arab League vows to drop out of NPT if Israel admits it has nuclear weapons.

This could go under policy but probably deserves its own section. What do others think? NPguy (talk) 03:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I put in some such info under "Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and United Nations’ Resolutions" last year. Maybe you should just beef it up? New section might get more opposition than its worth unless Arabs started taking notable action, like cutting off the oil. Carol Moore 04:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

Vandalism

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"hi" is written at the start of the article, but I can't find it in the source text.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 19:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I've fixed it - someone vandalised Template:Nuclear weapons, which is used at the start of the article. Hut 8.5 19:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring

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As a reminder, as soon as there is a disagreement about statements to put in the article, please bring things up at talk, don't just battle it out in edit summaries. Thanks, Elonka 14:27, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

this whole article is just another zionist scam, as we all know. --91.60.149.65 (talk) 16:37, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How about the obvious LACK of statements? Vladimir 2017 (talk) 03:14, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't the admins bring up their reverts around here FIRST ? 95.173.39.109 (talk) 10:51, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Collaboration

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Wikipedia requires that unless some information is so common and well known (e.g. the sky is blue by day) it needs to be sourced, otherwise it is a violation of original research or synthesis. The statement about Israel and South Africa collaborating on nuclear research because both found it difficult to elicit help from other nuclear capable countries is something that either needs a verifiable and reliable source or it cannot remain in the article. Thanks. -- Avi (talk) 11:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Not that they found help for nuclear research difficult to elicit, but help for nuclear weapons research.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 18:57, 29 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arab League threat to withdraw from NPT (?)

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The article contains the statement that "According to a statement by the Arab League, Arab states will withdraw from the NPT if Israel acknowledges having nuclear weapons and then does not open its facilities to international inspection and destroy its arsenal." There are several references to this statement in news reports on line. However, I think the statement was issued in error, without approval from Arab League states. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find citations for this. Given the circumstances, it might be politically difficult for the Arab League to disavow this statement publicly, even it it had been made in error.

What is the best way to note in the article itself these doubts about the cited reference? NPguy (talk) 02:55, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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The image Image:Kamag.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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Moved text from Israel and weapons of mass destruction

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As I saw no reason to have two articles with substantially the same text, I moved unique nuclear-related content from Israel and weapons of mass destruction to here and deleted the rest there. Please keep future nuclear-related edits here, not there. YLee (talk) 03:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I've made a request move at Israel and weapons of mass destruction talk, which also contains a rationale and short examples of POV concerns. Wikifan12345 (talk) 09:55, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Israel and NPT

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I was tempted to revert the addition of the Washington Times article on the U.S. statement at an NPT meeting this week. There was a bit of a public flap, but the Washington Times presented one of the less reliable accounts. The U.S. statement was a restatement of the longstanding U.S. position that all countries should adhere to the NPT. It was not new or shocking. What was somewhat interesting was that the United States named Israel among the four countries that are not NPT Parties. Some in Israel seemed to take offense; others seemed to take it in stride. Perhaps the most interesting commentary was one by Avner Cohen (author of Israel and the Bomb, saying Israel should drop its nuclear opacity in favor of a transparent approach that would allow it to contribute constructively to international and regional efforts to control nuclear weapons.

I'd like to edit to use more reliable accounts, the Cohen commentary, and make clear this is not really new. NPguy (talk) 22:01, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please add alternate accounts or opinions on the issue by all means. That will help provide a fuller picture of what's going on. Cla68 (talk) 00:08, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please do, it will save me the trouble. :-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:16, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delivery systems

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subs

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Please notice the last editions I made:

It was written that the nuclear traid of Israel is restricted and that it's mainly short to medium ranged. However, according to an official report to the U.S congress (which is cited now in the missile delivery entry) and according to other sources (which are easy to find and probably some of are already cited in this article)the short range delivery systems are out of service. The Jericho I (500 km range) is out of service and Israel is now belived to have Jericho II (1500 km range (medium), Israel arsenal includes about 100 such missiles) and Jericho III (widely referred by authoritative and professional sources as having range of no less than 6500 km and no longer than 11, 500 km with a payload of 1000kg, i.e., definitely considered as long range missile) in operational service. Israel diesel submarines fleet has a range of ~9000 km (or actually 4500 km back and forth, however increasing this range by naval refueling is possible) and they are widely belived to carry Israeli popeye turbo cruise missles with a medium range of 1500-2400 km, again-medium range delivery systems. The Israeli F-16 and F-15 have an operational range of ~4500 km ( ~2200 km back and forth ) without refueling, and much larger with (Israeli already proved that it can extended this range [3])-again, at least medium range ability. The shory range abilities are reserved as in all other nuclear countries to the use in tactical weapons where according to "Samson option" Israel can use short range specieal designed artillery and probably short range missiles and it can't be considered part of its nuclear traid which refer to stratgic abilities only. However, as Israel is small and hence cant disperse nuclear and airbases all over -it's appearently more vulnerable. More, diesel submarines can't stay underwater during all of their entire mission and hence the Israeli nuclear traid is more vulnerable than those of countries with nuclear submaines.--Gilisa (talk) 16:01, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong Wording by Source:

"Israeli Nuclear Dolphin-class submarine"

That implies/means that the Dolphin has a nuclear Drive which is untrue. I would remove the word Nuclear or change it to "presumedly nuclear armed"

Bombers

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Currently aircraft section is about 60% how Israel lacks the 1960s style USAF Chrome Dome arctic long duration patrol bombers like the B-52 or the pre ICBM/SLBM era heavy bombers built and retired by the UK, France, and mostly by the USSR and China who now use them as cruise missile carriers. The case of the B-52 and to a far lesser extent Soviet Bear bomber is one for for attacking a superpower enemy in a massive landmass on an opposing hemisphere after safely in a holding area waiting for attack orders. How does this have relevance to the modern Israeli nuclear deterrent or this article? I feel that summarizing cited sources for aircraft and doctrine believed to represent the Israeli aircraft based force is sufficient and airborne patrol intercontinental bombers previously used by the US and to a far lesser extent the USSR in that role need not be mentioned in counterpoint as even those aircraft are no longer used in this way by any nuclear power at this point in history. Unless there is a reasoned and cited reason for inclusion I propose removing the cold war comparison from this section as currently I think we may have a problem with OR. Solomon(for now)79.181.2.242 (talk) 11:07, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Other - including EMP

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The section now labeled "Other" contains a number of relatively speculative claims about Israeli nuclear weapons capabilities. Most problematic to me are those regarding the EMP effect. Two specific claims do not appear to be supported by the references cited. First, there is the claim about the importance of the high (1 megaton) yield which do not appear to be supported by the source (a U.S. Congressional hearing). In fact, the source says the EMP effect is only loosely correlated to yield. Second, there are specific claims about the relationship between the altitude of the explosion and its range that appear to be reasonable but do not appear to be supported by the references. My suggestion is to delete the bullet on EMP, since it is a generic nuclear weapons capability not linked to any specific claims about Israel. NPguy (talk) 13:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gilisa responded to my change with the following on my discussion page:
Hi, I just saw your last edit on the article whose title is mentioned above. You have deleted a source I provide about that a 1 megaton warhead could easily destory any unprotected electric device in a radius that can cover entire Iran. The source I gave is an obselte one however its estimations regarding the EMP effect of this warhead are still absolutly valid. It seems like you didn't look carefully in it because it contain a figure (in page 30 [4])that show the circle of EMP caused by a 1 MT WH over Iran itself. So, I didn't revert your editing still, but I ask you to come over it again-if it's not too hard for you, as soon as possible, and to return this source.
Best--Gilisa (talk) 15:10, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I have replaced one of the sources which was, my mistake, unreliable, with a reliable one. As for CSIS source, it's an academic source. Of course, you can't attribute 100% credibility for anything is written there as they consider their knowledge to be only partial themselvs. However, when it comes to phsycial estimations of EMP effect size they are basing their estimations on computer simulations and exact science tools. There is no reason why to omit this source. However, if you still disagree with me-please tell me.--Gilisa (talk) 15:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am still concerned that the text is misleading and unnecessary. First of all, EMP is a generic effect of nuclear weapons, not an "other" additional capability specifically attributed to Israel. The description of the potential effect on the United States seems irrelevant to this article. Second, the Congressional hearing says that the detonation need not be in the megaton range to achieve this effect. Therefore, the claim that a megaton-range detonation is necessary is specifically contradicted by one of the sources. A reference to EMP might make sense somewhere in this article, but I don't think it belongs under "other." NPguy (talk) 01:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We can move it to some other section.However, you are right that this is not a different genere of weapon but only different use for the same one. Indeed, the same effect, or closer, could be achieved with smaller warheads-however the source referring a "megaton scale" weapon. Again, may be palcing it under "other" is incorrect but today many defense ministries around the world are espcially interested with EMP abilities (which could be achived to smaller extent without nuclear weapons as well and infact USA, Israel and some other countries probably have this non nuclear capability)and many armed forces around the world are being equiped with electronic equipment that could stand an EMP attack. So citing this ability in an article about nuclear weapons seems invited.If you still insist upon this-we can delete it entirely from the article as indeed it's not a separate nuclear ability even to me it seems that it can make the article more interesting--Gilisa (talk) 06:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it could go under "doctrine" or "use," if you can find a citation suggesting that EMP is part of Israel's nuclear planning. NPguy (talk) 03:17, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll look for this kind of citation in the next few days. Thanks--Gilisa (talk) 04:47, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, please take a look and tell me whether it[5] do the work.--Gilisa (talk) 13:30, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This seems even less relevant because it's about non-nuclear EMP and it's not about Israel, which is mentioned only once in passing. NPguy (talk) 03:08, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nuclear superiority

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As this section mentions Iraq and Iran, shouldn't there be a brief bit about Israel's recent bombing of Syria's nuclear research facility? Fuzbaby (talk) 04:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

error

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"Although Israel first built a nuclear weapon in 1967-68"? and yet, it said in the begging that isreal is "widly belived to be 6h nation" with nuclear capabilitys, or somthing like tht. thats some what self contradictory, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.204.217 (talk) 20:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Before '67-68 the USA, Russia, UK, France, and China had developed nuclear weapons. That would make Israel #6. India developed them soon afterward and tested in '74. Joshdboz (talk) 21:59, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Verfication asked for an Hebrew source

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I added new paragraph to the article's 1967-present section:

In a 2010 interview Uzi Eilam, former head of the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission, told to the Israeli daily Maariv that the nuclear reactor in Dimona had been through extensive improvements and renovations and is now functioning as new, with no safety problems or hazard to the surrounding environment or the region.

Thia paragraph is based on this [6] daily newspaper article as a source. The source was asked for verfication by NPguy. The relevant paragraphes in the source are:


בלי להיכנס לתחום הביטחוני, כור עלול לגרום לבעיות סביבתיות קשות. "הכור בצ'רנוביל נבנה לפי קריטריונים רוסיים שלא היו בטיחותיים מספיק. הכור בדימונה אמנם ישן, אבל מי שטוען שכור כזה מסוכן בטיחותית לא יודע מה עשו לכור מבחינת תחזוקה. עשו בו שיפורים כאלה שהיום הוא כמו כור חדש".

It is a question by the journalist, answered then by Uzi Eilam. It's under the section:

לא כל דבר צריך להיות נחלת כל הציבור


at the bottom of the article. If anyother Hebrew speaker can approve that the source say whay I argue it say, it would be helpful.--Gilisa (talk) 09:59, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the quick reply. My concern was that in copy-editing the English summary I might not have rendered the original faithfully. Plus I wanted to understand the context. NPguy (talk) 22:12, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For nothing, the context is the above attached source which is a newpaper article questioning the nuclear ambiguity policy of Israel. Several past key people in the Israeli nuclear project had been interviwed there. Some support lifting of the nuclear ambiguity and some say that keeping it as it's is the best option for Israel and the entire region. The source also suggest that as tritium decay rate is about 5% annualy, Israel have no other choice but to keep the reactor operating to have its nuclear arsenal capable. In the relevant paragraph the journalist made an argue to Uzi Eilam (after previous interviewed professor of chimestry (who is not involved in the Israeli nuclear project since the early 70's, after it was reveald he's gay) argued that the reactor should be shut down because of its age):

בלי להיכנס לתחום הביטחוני, כור עלול לגרום לבעיות סביבתיות קשות.

Which is easily translated to: Without getting into specifics, nuclear reactor may cause severe enviromental problems.

Uzi Eilam then reply with this:

הכור בצ'רנוביל נבנה לפי קריטריונים רוסיים שלא היו בטיחותיים מספיק. הכור בדימונה אמנם ישן, אבל מי שטוען שכור כזה מסוכן בטיחותית לא יודע מה עשו לכור מבחינת תחזוקה. עשו בו שיפורים כאלה שהיום הוא כמו כור חדש".

Which is again easily translated to:

"The reactor in Chernobil was built according to Russian standards which were not safe enough. The reactor in Dimona is truely old, but anyone who argue that such reactor is an hazard don't know what was done with it in terms of maintaince, it had been through such an improvments that today it's like new one"

--Gilisa (talk) 07:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sharing

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Yesterday I added a new sub-section under the "Policy" section entitled "Sharing" with the following text: The government of Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to the South African government, according to an analysis of documents of the apartheid government. Top secret minutes of meetings between senior officials from the two countries in 1975 show that then Israeli Defense Minister Shimon Peres offered to sell the warheads to South Africa's then defence minister, P.W. Botha. The documents appear to undermine Israel's attempts to suggest that even if the Israeli government has nuclear weapons it is a "responsible" power that would not misuse them, since the Israeli government was willing to share nuclear warheads with the rogue apartheid regime. The Guardian, 24 May 2010, "Revealed: How Israel Offered to Sell South Africa Nuclear Weapons Exclusive: Secret Apartheid-Era Papers Give First Official Evidence of Israeli Nuclear Weapons," http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons. The office of President of the State of Israel Shimon Peres denied that there was "an exchange of nuclear weapons" between the governments of Israel and South Africa. Haaretz, 25 May 2010, http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-denies-offering-nuclear-weapons-to-apartheid-south-africa-1.291800

This section was removed with the note "undue weight" because this story is already covered elsewhere in the article. While the SA documents are elsewhere mentioned in the context of documentary evidence for the existence of IL nukes, the alleged offer to "share" should be mentioned as part of IL nuke policy. Further, the Guardian article explains that this sharing aspect is relevant to IL claims with respect to non-proliferation and safety, which are also important in the sharing context.--NYCJosh (talk) 21:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not only is it undue weight, but basically all your text is unacceptable. I'm not trying to be rude, but you just can't present things like that in the encyclopedia's voice. The Guardian reported on this story and came to these conclusions. They have been categorically denied by Israeli officials, South African officials, and other academics and media outlets (including even the Israel-bashing BBC). Any mention of the story must a) like you said, be reasonable in length per undue weight and b) make it very clear that these are allegations made by The Guardian and c) mention the other side per NPOV, ie: that it has been categorically denied from various sources. Breein1007 (talk) 21:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Breein100, your view that all of the text is unacceptable is noted. Can we agree that the sharing aspect is important as part of the policy section, with some of your caveats (reasonable in length, etc.) in mind? Then we can discuss specific objections to wording.--NYCJosh (talk) 22:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given the official denials and the analysis by Avner Cohen (arms control wonk) that the conclusions of the Guardian report are probably mistaken, I'm not sure this issue deserves added credence. NPguy (talk) 01:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
NPguy, I would understand your suggestion to include Avner Cohen's analysis. But the Guardian is RS and we as editors are not in a position to decide how much credence to give its report. Our task is to present sources and let the readers decide.--NYCJosh (talk) 02:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
NPGuy, you failed to respond to my response to your objection for three weeks. Then I added back a version of my contribution with changes to reflect suggestions of others. But you summarily removed my contribution still without responding to my response. That, I consider a stealthy move, not one to advance discussion. All objections should be aired here in a timely manner. --NYCJosh (talk) 13:52, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NYCJosh, I deleted your new section because it duplicated an existing section. We don't need two sections on the same topic. On the substance, I've had difficulty assessing the Guardian sources because of problems connecting to the Guardian's web site. Regardless, the Guardian conclusions are based on speculation about the meaning of seeming "code" words in the newly released memos. Whether one believes those conclusions, I think this article should reflect the fact that the Guardian is making a leap of logic, and that others dispute the logic. NPguy (talk) 19:46, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NPGuy, I had no problem looking at the Guardian link again today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons You raise two points: (1) Duplication. This issue, Israel's alleged offer to sell, is relevant to two different portions of the article. So, a brief couple of sentences is important for both, inlcuding the article's section on policy. Further, the section I contributed ADDS info and is not duplicative: it adds info relevant to the implications of the alleged sharing. (2)Speculation/analysis. The Guardian is a major newspaper and its analysis of the SA govt documents is noteable under WP rules and important for our article. If you wish to add some notable source refuting that analysis, feel free to propose it. I have no problem in principle with our article providing more than one interpretation of the SA docs. But such a second interpretation does not at all remove the notability for WP purposes of the Guardian analysis or its importance.--NYCJosh (talk) 22:27, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see the text you added as entirely duplicative of what is already there and does not merit repeating merely to emphasize a different angle. If you think there is something slightly different, edit the existing text, but don't duplicate it. That's my view. I'd be curious what other editors think. NPguy (talk) 02:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just saw some activity and thought I'd add my 2 cents. I think the mention of SA cooperation is certainly relevant; we already mention the possible Vela incident-connection. That said, it would be undue to give these "revelations" any more than a few sentences, ideally the source would be the book itself, and I don't think this should necessarily be treated in the revelations section, but perhaps integrated into the policy or history sections. I'll try to give this another look soon. Joshdboz (talk) 11:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

US committment to defeat resolutions

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This week I added this:

The chief Middle East policy expert of the U.S. National Security Council told a group of American Jewish leaders in November 2010 that the U.S. government was committed to defeating international resolutions designed to expose Israel's nuclear program at the International Atomic Energy Agency, while increasing pressure on Iran regarding their alleged nuclear proliferation activities.[1]

This was removed with the comment this is "ephemeral news" and will be forgotten tomorrow. I think it's notable because it shows the position the US has taken and intends to take in the future regarding blocking IAEA resolutions on Israel's nukes. It comes from a senior US NSC official on Middle East issues.--NYCJosh (talk) 19:17, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think there are better sources for the fact that the United States and others successfully opposed the IAEA General Conference resolution on Israel Nuclear Capabilities. But more important is the underlying reason - to avoid actions that would compromise the prospects for the 2012 conference on a WMD-free zone in the Middle East. Israel said it would only attend the conference if it was not just another exercise in Israel-bashing, and the failure of an Israel-bashing resolution at the IAEA is therefore a positive sign on prospects for the Conference. NPguy (talk) 04:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is no reason for removing this source. If you have a better one then replace it. Otherwise, leave the less notable source alone since it is still superior to nothing. Reliably sourced content in general should not be removed from Wikipedia. —K. the Surveyor (talk) 09:12, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with K. As I said, unlike the existing article text, this contribution refers not just to what happened at the past conference but to the current US approach and to what the US intends to do in the future.--NYCJosh (talk) 19:59, 18 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Haaretz, 2010 Nov 14, "U.S. Offers Israel Warplanes in Return for New Settlement Freeze," http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-offers-israel-warplanes-in-return-for-new-settlement-freeze-1.324496
My argument is about notability. I don't think it is particularly notable that an NSC official told AIPAC that the United States would seek to defeat anti-Israel resolutions at the IAEA. It is notable that the United States actually succeeded, and did so by arguing that the resolution would undermine the results of the NPT Review Conference. At least that's my view as a subject matter expert on nuclear nonproliferation. NPguy (talk) 23:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why not notable? It's not "AIPAC" btw but a group of American Jewish leaders, according to the article quoted. Also, it wasn't a general "America will defeat 'anti-Israel resolutions' at the IAEA" statement but more specific than that--read the text proposed.--NYCJosh (talk) 05:02, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to be derived from a single phrase "defeating resolutions aimed to expose Israel's nuclear program at the IAEA" in this Cable post. It looks like it was misinterpreted as a forward-looking promise rather than a description of a single event in the recent past, namely the defeat of the Israel Nuclear Capabilities resolution at the September 2010 IAEA General conference. NPguy (talk) 11:09, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Norways involvement

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I'd just like to point out that Norway did more then just sell heavy water...
Declassified information have confirmed that...
This article in norwegian is about what aid the norwegian government offered and to some degree gave them...
And here is some info proving that the norwegian government was aware of the Israeli wish to make nuclear weapons before the signing of the deals in question.
Just though I should inform you all.
Ps. All this info is in norwegian but it's possible to run them through various translators online like the google translator and get an ok understanding of the info.
Luredreier (talk) 14:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A little bit of this info is mentioned in the article by the way in the "British aid" section but there is some more info on Brennpunkts page including sharing of information and required equipment. Luredreier (talk) 15:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Half of the sources do not work

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Such as Hersh What the hell is this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.69.128.211 (talk) 19:00, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hersh is a reference to a book, The Samson Option, by Seymour Hersh (New York: Random House), 1991. See footnote 12. It's not online, which makes it harder to verify. NPguy (talk) 03:35, 29 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Confirmation for Dir az-Zor target being of a nuclear nature

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There were reports recently about confirmation for nuclear status of Dair az-Zor 2007 attack target, possibly from IAEA, IIRC. If someone has specifics and sources, I think it should be added to the article. WillNess (talk) 09:00, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done. NPguy (talk) 00:07, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources of uranium

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Where do Israel get it's uranium these day's ?

PS read this article it maybe interesting it's about a nuclear accident in the US in the 1960's that is related to Israel.

http://original.antiwar.com/smith-grant/2011/10/19/americans-pay-dearly-to-maintain-israels-nuclear-secrets/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.118.173.93 (talk) 19:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Great read! Smith also documented the theft of uranium perpetrated by Isr. Vladimir 2017 (talk) 03:20, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rationale for secrecy

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Israel is a rare (only?) case of a country possessing functional nuclear weapons but not openly announcing them. Most nuclear states want everyone to know as soon as the weapon works, because it is meant to be a deterrent. So why is Israel different? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.76.119 (talk) 05:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Because that was the deal struck with the Americans at the time. Many in Washington did not want Isr. to have nukes ever, which is why the uranium was stolen and not purchased. 109.202.107.15 (talk) 11:53, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Clear statement that Israel possesses nuclear weapons

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(For full disclosure I have no political views on Israeli issues at all and have no history of editing Israel-orientated articles)

I recently edited the first line to say, "Israel possesses nuclear weapons, and is widely believed to have been the sixth state to do so". This was reverted on the grounds that Israel has not confirmed the fact. I must admit to being rather baffled by this. The public position of the government of the state of Israel is not the only source. On Wikipedia, we normally make a positive statement about something if there are sufficient authoritative sources to suggest that the statement is true. We do not say "X is widely believed", we simply say "X" and cite sources.

In this case, there are plenty of such authoritative sources cited throughout the body of the article. If there is controversy (ie other authoritative sources disagree) about the truth of statement "x" then such controversy can be described. Here there is no controversy. The sources say that Israel has nuclear weapons. The government of the state of Israel does not deny (or confirm) this. In fact no authoritative sources at all deny the fact. Whether or not Israel has an official policy of strategic ambiguity should be of no relevance to Wikipedia's collective encylopedic judgement. Does anybody have any real reason to doubt the statement, "Israel posses nuclear weapons"? Thom2002 (talk) 07:45, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I still object to the phrase 'widely believed' to possess in the leader; this has been proved beyond all shadow of any encylopedic doubt whatsoever. How about, "Israel possesses nuclear weapons but has never affirmed their existence, and is widely believed to have been the sixth country to develop them" Thom2002 (talk) 23:45, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How about "Israel does not acknowledge that it possesses nuclear weapons, but is widely believed to have been the sixth country to develop them."? NPguy (talk) 02:31, 5 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that could be read as meaning that they developed the weapons but no longer possess them (like South Africa). We can't say for certain *when* Israel developed them, but we can say beyond all reasonable doubt that they do possess such weapons now, which is a suitable statement to start the article. Acknowledgement or otherwise is a slightly separate issue from actual possession. (although acknowledgement is also very important and belongs right at the start as well) Thom2002 (talk) 10:42, 5 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Israel does not acknowledge that it possesses nuclear weapons," is an important point, so what about "Israel does not acknowledge that it possesses nuclear weapons, but is both widely believed to have them and to being the sixth country to develop them."? IPWAI (talk) 04:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the non-acknowledgement is important, but its the "widely believed" bit I am objecting to as an unneccessary qualification for possession. So I would suggest, "Israel possesses nuclear weapons but does not acknowledge this possession. It is widely believed to have been the sixth country to develop them" Thom2002 (talk) 07:08, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please people will object unless there is absolute proof, by doing this it will create unnecessary controversy. Technically Israel is now considered a nuclear threshold state so what about this

"Israel is considered a nuclear threshold state. It is widely believed to have been the sixth country to develop nuclear weapons. This has never been openly confirmed or denied however, due to Israel's policy of deliberate ambiguity.[1]" IPWAI (talk) 05:08, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this helps. First, there's no definition of a "threshold state," and second, it will not satisfy those who want a clear statement that Israel has nuclear weapons. In my view, it is better to say that Israel is "generally believed to possess" nuclear weapons but "does not acknowledge" having them than an unqualified claim that Israel "possesses" nuclear weapons. NPguy (talk) 02:16, 3 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now even the "non-denial" part is missing, at a time when the whole world - except wikipedia - knows that they have nukes in the hundreds. Even Colin Powell wrote that in a leaked e-mail, and he would be in a position to know. 213.152.161.69 (talk) 01:45, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/090316_israelistrikeiran.pdf

RFC: Should the article's lead state that Israel possesses nuclear weapons?

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Should this article's lead state clearly that Israel possesses nuclear weapons?

At the moment this is stated more ambigously as, "Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons". The official policy of the state of Israel is to neither confirm or deny that the statement is true. However, it is perfectly clear from the cited sources that Isreal does in fact possess these weapons. There does not appear to be any credible sources which deny this statement. To retain the qualifier, "widely believed" appears to be giving undue weight to the official position of the state of Isreal, which is only one source. Furthermore, the state of Israel does not deny the fact, it simply does not confirm it. Many other reliable sources referenced in the article do confirm the statement positively. There is a vast array of evidence to back the statement up in its less ambiguous form. Thom2002 (talk) 21:25, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How about "Israel is generally presumed to possess nuclear weapons, ..."? NPguy (talk) 01:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I believe we should limit ourselves to only stating what we know definitively. There is little doubt for most, including myself, that Israel has nuclear weapons, but there is no smoking gun clearly and unequivocally confirming it. Perhaps we could tweak the wording a bit to make it clearer the way NP suggests above.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's fine as worded. Anyone reading the lead will get a good idea of how strong the belief is. IIRC "widely believed" is how I usually see it worded in news sources. To say that Israel definitely possesses nuclear weapons would require some reliable sources making that definitive claim.--Wikimedes (talk) 05:16, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd prefer to stick with the current "widely believed" wording. To me "generally presumed" sounds like more of an assumption, but with the large numbers of US/UK docs being declassified and Vanunu's photograph there is a very large document base to the belief. Rwendland (talk) 09:05, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - We really need to look at the sources here. Could the nom possibly see if he/she can present RSs that unambiguously state Israel possesses nuclear weapons? NickCT (talk) 17:53, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly the US military are 100% convinced that Israel posseses nuclear weapons. See [7] [8]. Notably, former US President Jimmy Carter also said that Israel posseses nuclear weapons [9]. Other sources cited in the article at present include FAS [10]. I am not aware of any serious observer who has ever refuted these assertions in regard to the simple existence of the weapons. Thom2002 (talk) 14:41, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. I accept everything you've said there. But the thing is, when I look at the mainstream source (i.e. NYT, Reuters, etc etc) they always add somekind of qualifier (i.e. they always say something like "Israel, which is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons, etc etc"). My sentiment would be that if most of the reliable sources treat it that way, we probably should too. NickCT (talk) 18:12, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That appears to be the consensus. Thom2002 (talk) 19:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, not at all. Western main stream media just carries no weight any longer. Most of the time they publish propaganda, lies or both. There is an endless list of postfactual MSM writing and the business on Israel nukes sure is part of that. The fact that Israel gov. is unwilling to speak the full truth does not mean that the rest of the world or wikipedia should go along with their propaganda line. They have nukes since 1966 period 213.152.161.69 (talk) 01:50, 5 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Article Revision - Nuke possession or not?

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It has been confirmed from multiple sources that Israel is in the possesion of nuclear weapons. Can we please edit certain parts of the article now and stop pretending Israel is only "Suspected' of being in possesion? I want the truth to be on Wikipedia, if people want to know if a certain country is in posession of certain weapons they should have the right to see facts and not some hush hush to protect the goverment from critic.

(Sorry for my bad English.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.169.44.108 (talk) 10:49, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This has been discussed repeatedly, and the consensus has been to treat Israel's possession of nuclear weapons as unconfirmed. This is an accurate reflection of Israel's policy. NPguy (talk) 18:51, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
NPguy, there never was such a consensus, you claim does exist. We should do the exact opposite of what partisan diplomats of Isr. and capitalist-controlled main stream media do: Report facts but not tow the line of a small country in Arabia. WP should be independent and report independently that Israel possesss nukes with 99.999% likelyhood. Try to imagine the opposite: Isr. has access to nuke test data from France but does not use it, Isr. has Dimona but only wants to produce electricity, de Gaulle kicks Isr. out, even though they just want nuclear power plants, Isr. guarantuess "no nuclear Jericho missiles before 1972" even though they have no nukes, etc., etc. . None of that make any sense at all. We must get real! 95.173.39.109 (talk) 10:41, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No. NPguy never produces evidence to support his outlandish and made-up claims. It is impossible that a majority of wikipedians is so ignorant as to not clearly assess the situation here. Israel 100% positively has nukes since 1966, as all sources given are clearly proving. 95.90.197.45 (talk) 05:42, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Opening statement: "having built its first nuclear weapon in December 1966."

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While I saw several threads that reached a consensus with regards to the opening claim that Israel is "widely believed" to posses nuclear weapons as opposed to affirmatively making such a statement, the following clause affrimatively claims that it has built its first nuclear weapon in 1966.

To clarify, I believe that the wording of this dependent clause (first nuclear weapon) has been ambiguosly written outside of the scope of "widely believed."

Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons and to be the sixth country in the world to have developed them, having allegedly built its first nuclear weapon in December 1966.

Cheers, eyal3400

~There were better times. (talk) 19:05, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can't you see? This is a disinfo campaign on Isr. nukes. That was obvious to me from the getgo. BTW, I never saw such a nonsensical consensus which you refer to. Vladimir 2017 (talk) 03:11, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Who do they think they can fool?

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I think it was Mearsheimer who said with respect to isr. nukes: "I mean, who do they think they can fool?" The cat is out of the bag for decades. Wikipedia is a very stupid wiki, not acknowledging reality. Kissinger 05:07, 21 December 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zio jew (talk • contribs)

Prof. Mearsheimer is far more informative than wikipedia on the matter. Wikipedia is disinfo. Vladimir 2017 (talk) 02:58, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Any real evidence?

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Are there any real evidence that Israel has any nuclear weapons? As I see it, it is just rumours spread by israel themselfs to stear off an invasion from their neighbors without having to develope real nuclear weapons, that won't be used anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.226.155.36 (talk) 14:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Read the article. Mordechai Vanunu provided a lot of information to the Times of London. Follow the citations after his name in the article. NPguy (talk) 02:00, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know of Mordechai Vanunu. That's why I asked for "real evidence" and not rumours spread by someone who just could been an israeli pawn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.226.155.36 (talk) 21:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Even serious magazines at the time speculated that Vanunu might be fake / double-XX, but just look at the full picture by now: They do have nukes period 109.202.107.15 (talk) 11:48, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

New evidence

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  • Chris McGreal (23 May 2010). "Revealed: how Israel offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons". guardian.co.uk. Retrieved 23 May 2010. — "Secret apartheid-era papers give first official evidence of Israeli nuclear weapons" -- 87.79.174.241 (talk) 21:16, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
there are plenty of books and Grant F. Smith's work. If that is not enough, this planet cannot help you to get any further. -- 91.60.149.65 (talk) 16:40, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Confirmed nuclear capacity

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A Spiegal article released today confirms that Israel has nuclear weapons: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/israel-deploys-nuclear-weapons-on-german-submarines-a-836671.html — unsigned added by 188.222.10.100 (talk) 13:20, 3 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What it states is "The German government has known about Israel's nuclear weapons program for decades, despite its official denials." In other words Israel still does NOT claim to have such weapons. IPWAI (talk) — undated added 04:49, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Worth noting, that FAS (quoted 13+ times) just mentions the fact that Germany asked for assurances that the subs won't fire nuclear missiles - similar to those assurances Israel gave when getting U.S. weapons (F4 Phantom). The public was fooled again! --213.136.77.237 (talk) 01:18, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ambiguity in sources

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The references are a bit difficult to follow. Seymour Hersh is quite a prolific author, so when a lot of references simply point to "Hersh, 19" or some other terse source, the question becomes "What is this referring to"? In the reference listing, there is a "Hersh, Seymour (February 11, 2008). "A Strike in the Dark". The New Yorker. Retrieved February 23, 2008." and that is all. But it is listed after most of the short references. Farther down, there is this:

Hersh, Seymour M. The Samson Option. New York: Random House, 1991. ISBN 0-394-57006-5

Quite confusing. If all of the terse references refer to the book mentioned, it seems illogical to list it last without a preceding mention of it. And it is ambiguous to use the terse reference in light of the second source from the New Yorker article. I like to saw logs! (talk) 19:10, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would assume that all the Hersh references are page numbers in "The Samson Option." Similarly the Cohen references are all to Avner Cohen's "Israel and the Bomb." The latter is a respected scholarly history (based on documents and in-depth interviews); the former more journalistic (based at least in part on anonymous sources) and less reliable. NPguy (talk) 02:06, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Deterrent ???

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This seems a loaded, biased term. Some would describe the intent as "aggression". But, of course, the "narrative" of Wikipedia's "reliable sources" (USraeli corporate media) do not describe it like that. Fourtildas (talk) 03:55, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Israel acted aggressively many, many times (flotilla, Lebanon, ...). A professor is quoted suggesting Israel to use nukes preemptively, i.e. aggressively. --213.136.77.237 (talk) 01:25, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Despite your paranoia, Israel is not an aggressive state. It defends itself, which is quite another matter. 50.111.31.62 (talk) 22:44, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yom Kippur War & Dayan's reported nuclear statements ?

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That article states : "During the night of October 8–9, an alarmed Dayan told Meir that "this is the end of the third temple."[273] He was warning of Israel's impending total defeat, but "Temple" was also the code word for nuclear weapons.[274] Dayan again raised the nuclear topic in a cabinet meeting, warning that the country was approaching a point of "last resort".[276] That night Meir authorized the assembly of thirteen 20-kiloton-of-TNT (84 TJ) tactical atomic weapons for Jericho missiles at Sdot Micha Airbase, and F-4 aircraft at Tel Nof Airbase, for use against Syrian and Egyptian targets.". This article does not mention this incident, but should cover it, as it implies that Israel could have started a nuclear war. How reliable are the reports on this ? Speculation ? Sounds to me like a warning to the US that arms shipments should start immediately, as there is no way the US would have tolerated a nuclear war risk. Rcbutcher (talk) 07:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Zalman Mordecai Shapiro

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http://www.businessinsider.com/the-explosive-story-of-how-israel-received-weapons-grade-nuclear-material-from-a-us-company-in-the-sixties-2012-8

Reliably sourced enough to mention here? Hcobb (talk) 14:33, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reads like a conspiracy theory linked by speculation. NPguy (talk) 04:16, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is The Apollo Affair, which the article alredy links to. The FBI and CIA investigated it - the plant lost enough HEU to make diversion plausible, but there appears to be no conclusion either way. The NRC wrote about it "NRC found no documents that provided specific evidence that the diversion of nuclear materials occurred. However, consistent with previous Commission statements, NRC does not have information that would allow it to unequivocally conclude that nuclear material was not diverted from the site, nor that all previously unaccounted for material was accounted for during the decommissioning of the site."[11] So not a simple conspiracy theory. Rwendland (talk) 08:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Overstated

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Hans M. Kristensen and Robert S. Norris (2014). "Israeli nuclear weapons, 2014". Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists 70 (6): 97–115. DOI: 10.1177/0096340214555409

--86.161.110.166 (talk) 20:35, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon? These two go out of their way to downplay Isr. nukes in any conceivable way. When at the end they speak of "doubts" they give no reasons at all that justify any doubts. So I have my doubts about this paper... 95.173.39.109 (talk) 10:46, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there nothing about the Dolphin nuke submarines?

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Everyone but wikipedia knows that they have nuclear submarines "Dolphin" as a free gift from Germany of all places. Kissinger 05:12, 21 December 2015 (UTC) —  by Zio jew (talk • contribs)

Do you mean subs with nuclear weapons? Currently, the Israeli navy does not have nuclear-powered submarines.
It was in there under "Marine" - have just changed to "Submarines". - Snori (talk) 01:59, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Spherical Inches

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....I've just been reading this article, and have stumbled across the phrase "...desalinate a billion cubic gallons of seawater...". I hate to be too petty, but a "gallon" is a measure of volume anyway. A "cubic gallon" really doesn't make any sense... 81.99.236.225 (talk) 23:56, 23 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

While you may hate your pettiness, i for one thoroughly enjoy it. Tacticomed (talk) 10:55, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just put a gallon into a 15.585 cm cube. But seriously, I fixed the nonsense. NPguy (talk) 17:29, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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A puzzling claim

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Article currently reads in part Uranium enrichment could also be used to re-enrich reprocessed uranium into reactor fuel to more efficiently use Israel's uranium supply. That's a peculiar speculation, and frankly the sort of thing one often reads in anti-nuclear material. It's a pretty good guess that such material is the original source of this ridiculous unsourced statement.

Uranium enrichment produces enriched uranium and depleted uranium (DU), that is, uranium enriched and depleted in the fissile U-235. Yes, enriched uranium could be blended into reprocessed uranium, which is also deficient in U-235, in order to make it again usable as nuclear fuel. It's known as back-blending.

But what's the point? That's essentially reversing the enrichment process! Why not instead blend it with the depleted uranium from the enrichment process, avoiding the need to use uranium from reprocessed fuel (a hazardous and expensive process owing to fission products)? They're both depleted, and you have a surplus of them, so throw out the bad stuff (the spent fuel residue after perhaps removing the plutonium) and use the good stuff (the DU from the enrichment plant), surely?

But that's a ridiculous idea too. So better still, why not just stop the enrichment process at a lower level of U-235, the level you want to end up with, and not need to back-blend at all? That's by far the cheapest option, makes far better use of enrichment capacity (probably the most critical resource), and achieves exactly the same end product. Operate high-level enrichment stages only when you want to end up with HEU. Tap off your LEU as LEU earlier in the process.

Which is what the rest of the world does. And I'm guessing so do the Israelis. I admit it's a guess, but it's a better guess than the one in the article, don't you think? And neither guess should be in the article.

Back-blending has been done to use HEU from decommissioned warheads as reactor fuel. In that context it makes sense. But not in this one. Sorry. Andrewa (talk) 07:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree this is excessive detail for an encycopedia artice, and speculation as well - I'll get rid of it and add some cites. I'll also trim out some of the other unnecessary speculation/detail in para. Rwendland (talk) 11:35, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Trim and tidy of the intro

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Not meaning to push any barrows here, just get it a bit more readable. - Snori (talk) 02:54, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please discuss edits here

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At a minimum, the range of stockpile estimates must be included. It is not redundant. NPguy (talk) 02:40, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unexplained reverts

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@NPguy: @Wikaviani: Please stop edit warring, and explain what exactly about this edit is "controversial"? Moponoly (talk) 14:23, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, you have reveted 3 different users within 24 hours, this would be a good reason for you to get blocked, even if you did not break the 3RR and you tell us to stop edit warring ??? Second, just a question among others, could you please tell me which one of your sources says that Israel has the third nuclear arsenal in the world ?---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 14:50, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikaviani: Many of the sources write "up to 400", which easily makes it up to the third biggest arsenal. Not even France or China comes anywhere close. Now please explain why you reverted everything. Moponoly (talk) 09:16, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Moponoly: Wrong, sources say that nobody know exactly how many nuclear warheads Israel has, their number is between 80 and 400. For your information, UK has some 250 nuclear warheads mounted on their Vanguard class submarines (Trident missiles), France has between 300 and 400 warheads, mounted on their submarines and Rafale fighters and China has at least 300 nuclear warheads. These countries have a nuclear striking force probably far superior to Israel.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 12:00, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikaviani: All those countries have ratified the NPT, and are thus obliged to disclose the details of their nuclear weapons. None of them have more than 300 warheads, unless they cheated, which is very unlikely. Regarding the striking force, China maybe, but France and the U.K.? I doubt it. Their ranges are inferior. Also, you still haven't explained why you reverted my whole edit. What's wrong with the picture change, mention of Samson Option, footnote, mention of hack against the Iranian reactors, etc.? Moponoly (talk) 12:08, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, i was not the only one who reverted your "whole edit", two other editors reverted it as well and even before me. Second, all your above claims about the nuclear stockpiles are unsourced. Even if the UK has "only" 200 nuclear warheads, since the Israeli stockpile is not well known (i mean, maybe they have "only" 80 warheads...) any ranking like "they're on the third place" is under WP:OR. You need to provide a reliable source which explicitly states that Israel is on the third place of the list of countries with nuke heads. Btw, YES, the British or French nuclear striking forces are just far superior than that of Israel, since they probably have bigger stockpiles and more powerful warheads and, i presume you're kidding me when you say "their ranges are inferior" since France has M51 missiles with an operational range of 8000-10000 km (about 100 kilotons) and UK has the even more powerful Trident missiles with an operational range of more than 12000 km (about 500 kilotons).---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 18:16, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikaviani: NPguy even wrote in his edit summary that some of the changes were good, but he was too lazy to sort them out. You should add all of my changes, except for the disputed ones were discussing now.
I know, that's why i used the phrase "up to the third biggest arsenal".
That's a bad presumption. Not according to List of ICBMs.

The fact that a comment says not to change without citing a reliable source and that the edit deletes the existing reliable source is an indication of editing against prior consensus. That is, the existing text is the result of settling past debates on the size of Israel's stockpile. This article has been the subject of some controversy. The high end estimate is something of an outlier and not a good basis for comparisons with other countries. If you want to propose changes, best to discuss them one at a time rather than making extensive edits all at once. NPguy (talk) 21:39, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Bsherr: Thanks for your inclusion of the uncontroversial parts. Just a couple of details: you seem to have duplicated the text about development history in the lead, please remove the former one, and you also forgot to add the sources from the infobox to the stockpile estimation in the lead. Moponoly (talk) 12:58, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Monopoly: I've fixed the redundancy in the lede. Concerning the citations, I think it's probably best if you go ahead and make the changes you think appropriate directly, so everyone can review them. Let's just continue to stay clear of the rankings issue unless there is consensus, as that seems to be the only part I've seen contested on this talk page. Thanks. --Bsherr (talk) 21:50, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Article claims Stuxnet as wholly Israel. Stuxnet consensus states it was Co developed with US and Israel

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Article states it was solo Israel, with no source.

Considering, then planning, an attack on a sovereign nation nuclear facilities, and executing it unilaterally does not make sense when one considers the blowback (of which there was almost none).

Most learned sources cite US and Israel at the least, with some (lesser cited and less reliable) including all 5 eyes involved.

Could Israel have done it itself? Perhaps, but the blowback from it's allies would have been sever.

Can't fix it since it's locked Tacticomed (talk) 10:37, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed the main Stuxnet reference, but saw no need to edit lede. NPguy (talk) 17:22, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

/*Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel#Iraq*/ UNSC [S/RES/487(1981)]

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no mention of Security council resolution [S/RES/487(1981)] [1][2] The reactor had been in operation since 1967 and Iran was in full compliance with IAEA inspections. Mr. Sigvard Eklund, Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), presented his view of the events. Israel claimed the vault below the reactor was a secret plutonium factory which he countered by stating that the IAEA was fully aware of the vault and it housed the machinery that moves the control rods.[3]

This section is complete fabrication. UN documents, the IAEA and international community pointed out that Israel's version of events was not a reasonable account. 49.198.7.235 (talk) 13:25, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://undocs.org/S/RES/487(1981)
  2. ^ "News Summary; FRIDAY, JUNE 20, 1981". The New York Times. June 20, 1981. A unanimous Security Council vote approved a resolution that "strongly condemned" Israel for its destruction of an Iraqi nuclear reactor and urged Israel to open its nuclear plants to international inspection.
  3. ^ "UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL OFFICIAL RECORDS THIRTY-SIXTH YEAR 2288th MEETING: 19 JUNE 1981" (PDF). p. 2. It has been stated by the Israelis that a laboratory located 40 meters below the reactor-the figure was later corrected to four meters which allegedly had not been discovered by IAEA inspectors had been destroyed. The existence of a vault under the reactor that has apparently been hit by the bombing is well known to the inspectors. That vault contains the control rod drives and has to be accessible to the staff for maintenance purposes. In order to protect the staff from radiation, the ceiling of the vault consists of a thick concrete slab which in turn is lined with a heavy steel plate and therefore, that space could not be used to produce plutonium.

1963 standoff between Israel and United States

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An editor KasimMejia has added a long and quite interesting section on this topic. Two comments: First, it seems appropriate for its own article, but more detailed than appropriate for a section in this article. Second, it relies heavily on a single article in Ha'aretz, but ignores the extensive scholarship on this topic by Avner Cohen, including two books (Israel and the Bomb and The Worst-Kept Secret: Israel's Bargain with the Bomb). NPguy (talk) 20:43, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the insight, I will write an article about it today. Was unsure about writing an article due to lack of sources but adding those two books should make it enough. I'll summarize the section once I'm done with article. Feel free to add up. KasimMejia (talk) 07:32, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here it is, 1963 Israel–United States standoff. KasimMejia (talk) 12:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Netanyahu comments

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Netanyahu accidentally called Israel a "nuclear power" on 5 January 2020.[1] Worth including? buidhe 12:54, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Netanyahu, in apparent stumble, calls Israel 'nuclear power'". Reuters. 5 January 2020.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 March 2021

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Need a source for this statement: "According to US journalist Seymour Hersh, everything was ready for production at this time save an official order to do so."

Also, the first reference is incomplete. 96.236.195.47 (talk) 18:40, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Added a citation needed template. As for the first reference being incomplete you'll need to elaborate on that. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:27, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Who says?

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Amid all the "it is widely believed that", should we state clearly who has significantly stated that Israel has nuclear weapons? viz people (such as Jimmy Carter, here, 2008; Jared Kushner, here, 2023), governments, experts (Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists Notebook), Israeli officials, and international organisations. Onanoff (talk) 19:24, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 December 2023

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the corect version of the said quote is as follows (and i hold a digitsl copy of the original document from March 10 1965, and i am historian, i know what am i talking about: "Israel will not be the first country to introduce nuclear weapon into the Arab-Israel region". NOTE!!! NOT "Israel will not be the first country to introduce nuclear weapon into the middle east", BUT "Israel will not be the first country to introduce nuclear weapon into the Arab-Israel region". Why is it important? because in 1965 there were at least two countries that already introduced nuclear weapon into the middle east: USSR and USA (and most probably France and the UK), that had nuclear submarines running all over the middle east. Thanks. (And I could mail you the document titled "Memorandum of Understanding".) 46.117.34.183 (talk) 12:30, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Shadow311 (talk) 01:32, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:France and weapons of mass destruction which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:31, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 August 2024

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Intro, second paragraph 'Heritage Minister Amihay Eliyahu publicly called for dropping a nuclear bomb over Gaza, which some took to be a tacit admission that Israel posses such a capability.'

Suggest change from 'posses' to 'possesses' (spelling). Cadmiz (talk) (contribs) 09:48, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Hyphenation Expert (talk) 10:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

October US Govt Leaks

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Hello @NPguy, why did you remove the information about the US Govt leaks for 'ephemera'? This was widely reported when it happened – by multiple news sources – many of whom referred to the comments about nuclear use. Can you provide more context about your edits? Smallangryplanet (talk) 13:45, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The information was sure to be out of date within days, and in fact it is. If you think there is an element of enduring interest, feel free to try again. NPguy (talk) 15:53, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request 16 June 2025

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Description of suggested change:

The name "spider" is almost never used for the 1967 plan. The name that is used most often is "Operation Shimshon" (Hebrew: מבצע שמשון Mivtza Shimshon). Or sometimes just "codename Shimshon". That section is also currently supported by only one source, but there are dozens or hundreds available, including some quote recent sources, in both Hebrew and English, if you search with the more common name. 2405:6E00:634:32DF:595F:8B86:5764:504B (talk) 16:10, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I moved the signature above up from the end when I was fixing the broken bits that people pointed out below. The first version had a broken signature, but it was only about half an hour earlier. 2405:6E00:634:5C60:E8B8:C05F:E3C7:1883 (talk) 16:22, 25 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Diff:

−
=== Weapons production, 1966–present === Israel is believed to have begun full-scale production of nuclear weapons following the 1967 [[Six-Day War]], although it had built its first operational nuclear weapon by December 1966. A [[Central Intelligence Agency]] (CIA) report from early 1967 stated that Israel had the materials to construct a bomb in six to eight weeks and some authors suggest that Israel had two crude bombs ready for use during the war. According to US journalist [[Seymour Hersh]], everything was ready for production at this time save an official order to do so. Israel crossed the nuclear threshold on the eve of the Six-Day War in May 1967. "[Prime Minister Levi] Eshkol, according to a number of Israeli sources, secretly ordered the Dimona [nuclear reactor] scientists to assemble two crude nuclear devices. He placed them under the command of Brigadier General Yitzhak Yaakov, the chief of research and development in Israel's Defense Ministry. One official said the operation was referred to as Spider because the nuclear devices were inelegant contraptions with appendages sticking out. The crude atomic bombs were readied for deployment on trucks that could race to the Egyptian border for detonation in the event Arab forces overwhelmed Israeli defenses". Another CIA report from 1968 states that "Israel might undertake a nuclear weapons program in the next several years"...
+
=== Weapons production, 1966–present === Israel is believed to have begun full-scale production of nuclear weapons following the 1967 [[Six-Day War]], although it had built its first operational nuclear weapon by December 1966. A [[Central Intelligence Agency]] (CIA) report from early 1967 stated that Israel had the materials to construct a bomb in six to eight weeks and some authors suggest that Israel had two crude bombs ready for use during the war. According to US journalist [[Seymour Hersh]], everything was ready for production at this time save an official order to do so. Israel crossed the nuclear threshold on the eve of the Six-Day War in May 1967. [[Avner Cohen]] confirmed some of Hersh's story in a 2017 report, published by the [[Wilson Centre]]. Cohen said that he was attempting to explain the reasons for the outbreak of the [[Six-Day War]], including that "Israel feared [[Preemptive strike |Egyptian strikes]] on the [[Dimona Nuclear Centre|nuclear reactor]] in [[Dimona]]". In the version told by Hersh, "[Prime Minister Levi] [[Levi Eshkol|Eshkol]], according to a number of Israeli sources, secretly ordered the Dimona [nuclear reactor] scientists to assemble two crude nuclear devices. He placed them under the command of Brigadier General [[Yitzhak Yaakov]]<span class="noprint" style="font-size:85%; font-style: normal; "> [[[:he:יצחק יעקב|he]]]</span>, the chief of research and development in Israel's Defense Ministry. One official said the operation was referred to as Spider because the nuclear devices were inelegant contraptions with appendages sticking out. The crude atomic bombs were readied for deployment on trucks that could race to the Egyptian border for detonation in the event Arab forces overwhelmed Israeli defenses". A article in Haaretz in 2011 described makeshift devices transported in helicopters. The most commonly reported name for the plan is ''Operation Shimshon'' ([[Hebrew language|Hebrew]]: <span lang="he" dir="rtl">מבצע שמשון</span>, <small>[[Romanization of Hebrew|romanized]]: </small><span title="Hebrew-language romanization"><i lang="he-Latn">Mivtza Shimshon</i></span>). This codename referred to the [[Jewish views on suicide|suicide]] of the the [[Judges 16 #Verse 30|Biblical]] hero [[Samson#Death|Samson]] ([[Hebrew language|Hebrew]]: <span lang="he" dir="rtl">שמשון</span>, <small>[[Romanization of Hebrew|romanized]]: </small><span title="Hebrew-language romanization"><i lang="he-Latn">Shimshon</i></span>). [[Yitzhak Yaakov]]<span class="noprint" style="font-size:85%; font-style: normal; "> [[[:he:יצחק יעקב|he]]]</span> called it "Operation [[Doomsday device|Doomsday]]" ([[Hebrew language|Hebrew]]: <span lang="he" dir="rtl">מבצע יום הדין</span>), and he was worried that the plan would kill himself and his troops stationed in the [[Sinai Peninsula |Sinai]]. [[The New York Times]] claimed that the plan was only a "demonstration" (see "[[Nuclear weapons and Israel#Nuclear testing|Nuclear testing]]" below). Another CIA report from 1968 states that "Israel might undertake a nuclear weapons program in the next several years"...

This has been revised based on feedback to fix broken code etc. 2405:6E00:634:5C60:E8B8:C05F:E3C7:1883 (talk) 05:29, 26 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A article in Haaretz in 2011 described makeshift devices transported in helicopters.[8] The most commonly reported name for the plan is Operation Shimshon (Hebrew: מבצע שמשון, romanized: Mivtza Shimshon).[b] This codename referred to the suicide of the the Biblical hero Samson (Hebrew: שמשון, romanized: Shimshon).[6][13] Yitzhak Yaakov [he] called it "Operation Doomsday" (Hebrew: מבצע יום הדין), and he was worried that the plan would kill himself and his troops stationed in the Saini.[5][14][15] The New York Times claimed that the plan was only a "demonstration" (see "Nuclear testing" below).[15]

The green "tqb" box above shows the longest blue section from the "TextDiff", and the box below is the same code as the "TextDiff", for the whole paragraph, including unchanged text. 2405:6E00:634:5C60:E8B8:C05F:E3C7:1883 (talk) 21:59, 25 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Weapons production, 1966–present

Israel is believed to have begun full-scale production of nuclear weapons following the 1967 Six-Day War, although it had built its first operational nuclear weapon by December 1966.[1] A Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) report from early 1967 stated that Israel had the materials to construct a bomb in six to eight weeks[2] and some authors suggest that Israel had two crude bombs ready for use during the war.[3] According to US journalist Seymour Hersh, everything was ready for production at this time save an official order to do so. Israel crossed the nuclear threshold on the eve of the Six-Day War in May 1967.[4] Avner Cohen confirmed some of Hersh's story in a 2017 report, published by the Wilson Centre.[5] Cohen said that he was attempting to explain the reasons for the outbreak of the Six-Day War, including that "Israel feared Egyptian strikes on the nuclear reactor in Dimona".[5][6][7] In the version told by Hersh, "[Prime Minister Levi] Eshkol, according to a number of Israeli sources, secretly ordered the Dimona [nuclear reactor] scientists to assemble two crude nuclear devices. He placed them under the command of Brigadier General Yitzhak Yaakov [he], the chief of research and development in Israel's Defense Ministry. One official said the operation was referred to as Spider because the nuclear devices were inelegant contraptions with appendages sticking out. The crude atomic bombs were readied for deployment on trucks that could race to the Egyptian border for detonation in the event Arab forces overwhelmed Israeli defenses".[4] A article in Haaretz in 2011 described makeshift devices transported in helicopters.[8] The most commonly reported name for the plan is Operation Shimshon (Hebrew: מבצע שמשון, romanized: Mivtza Shimshon).[c] This codename referred to the suicide of the the Biblical hero Samson (Hebrew: שמשון, romanized: Shimshon).[6][13] Yitzhak Yaakov [he] called it "Operation Doomsday" (Hebrew: מבצע יום הדין), and he was worried that the plan would kill himself and his troops stationed in the Sinai.[5][14][15] The New York Times claimed that the plan was only a "demonstration" (see "Nuclear testing" below).[15]

Another CIA report from 1968 states that "Israel might undertake a nuclear weapons program in the next several years"...

I think I've finally fixed all the citations now, and the language templates, and links. I've added the "Interlanguage link" Yitzhak Yaakov [he] instead of my original messy link to the page. Some of this didn't look right in the "TextDiff", so I put a copy of it in the "tqb" like @Xan747 used for the examples. 2405:6E00:634:66C4:1B19:DDDF:1401:FC5E (talk) 03:24, 24 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! You have put a lot of time in this edit request and I am willing to help you, but you need to help me help you.
Starting with this: Yitzhak Yaakov was worried that the plan would kill himself and his troops stationed in the Sinai.(sources below) "Sources below" is not good enough when there are so many. Please chose two sources, preferably sources in English that I can access online, and then I will check if your sentence is confirmed by those sources.
Do the same for the next sentence you want to add. I'll see it when you have answered. Friendly, Lova Falk (talk) 15:40, 28 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to help implement this change, but unfortunately the Wikitext of your proposed addition is malformed, specifically the citations. for example:

The codename was Shimshon (שמשון), the Hebrew name for the Biblical hero Samson.(Hebrew https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2017-06-04/ty-article/.premium/0000017f-db87-df62-a9ff-dfd77e5f0000 and English https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-06-04/ty-article/israeli-ex-general-nuking-sinai-in-1967-wouldve-hurt-israel/0000017f-f846-ddde-abff-fc672eff0000)

Should end up looking like this:

The codename was Shimshon (שמשון), the Hebrew name for the Biblical hero Samson.[21]

The Hebrew version is redundant would just clutter up the References list.
There is a very handy tool for generating proper citations from an Internet URL here: https://citer.toolforge.org/
You can just paste your modifications as a response to this message. No need to use the diff template as it is already clear what text you wish to replace. I'll then review and implement if all looks good. Thanks. Xan747 (talk) 20:32, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the citation generating tool. The Hebrew version is the source for the name in Hebrew, the English source only the gives translation / Romanization. 2405:6E00:634:D570:B3BF:53EF:EEEF:9084 (talk) 01:44, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your help. Sorry I took such a long time. It is ready for review whenever you are next available.
I kept multiple sources for the operation name, because saying the name is commonly used needs multiple sources? But I made it neater by copying the way the page does "Notes", so there is only one letter instead of a string of 5 numbers.
There are two languages, plus two translations of the name in English (Samson / Shimshon). If you want fewer sourcesthen you can delete The National (Abu Dhabi) and Ynet from the sources for the operation name, keep Politico Europe for "Operation Shimshon", and keep Kikar HaShabbat (website) for the name in Hebrew. I already picked just one citation for "Samson Option".
Also, I combined a pair of Haaretz articles – that were unambiguously Hebrew and English versions of the same story – as one citation.[8] So this is just one listed reference and one superscript number, less clutter. I think it's useful to link both, for Hebrew spellings, and because the subscriptions are sold separately so a lot of people who can access it will only be able to access one.
2405:6E00:634:5C60:E8B8:C05F:E3C7:1883 (talk) 09:58, 26 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
information Note: the links for the names already present in the article can't be placed, as Seymour Hersh was already linked (either here or previously) in the article, and the [[Hebrew Wikipedia: יצחק יעקב |Yitzhak Yaakov]] did not work, it just gave Yitzhak Yaakov. Wikieditor662 (talk) 21:22, 9 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikieditor662, This looks like the right way to do the thing I was trying to do? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Interlanguage_link It looks ok here Yitzhak Yaakov [he] but it looks wrong in the blue section? 2405:6E00:634:D570:B3BF:53EF:EEEF:9084 (talk) 14:19, 14 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah the way you should it for that name is fine, it just didn't work on my end for some reason. Wikieditor662 (talk) 15:42, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Which didn't work? His name also appears in the next section with a different spelling "Itzhak Yaakov". I think the Y version is more common, like Yitzhak Rabin and Yitzhak Shamir, and his obituary uses a Y for both his names: https://www.haaretz.com/2013-03-26/ty-article/brig-general-yitzhak-yaakov-dies-at-87/0000017f-dc18-d3ff-a7ff-fdb842060000 2405:6E00:634:D570:B3BF:53EF:EEEF:9084 (talk) 16:46, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still working on formatting the citations, sorry. 2405:6E00:634:D570:B3BF:53EF:EEEF:9084 (talk) 16:47, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's alright! I just meant for me as I showed you the translated page didn't show up. But you seemed to have figured it out. Wikieditor662 (talk) 19:07, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now: Proposed changes contain malformed Wikitext. Xan747 (talk) 20:38, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Xan747, I think I've finally fixed them all now. Thank you for the tips. Are they right now? 2405:6E00:634:66C4:1B19:DDDF:1401:FC5E (talk) 03:00, 24 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. This is a duplicate of my message to you on my talk page. Other IPs, which I assume are also you, have been making very frequent changes, so it's difficult to know when you're going to actually be ready for a review. You are also proposing quite a large amount of content, which may be somewhat in excess of what can be expected of edit request responders to handle. There's no set limit, it's just that this is in the range of a little much. Finally, as a courtesy to editors monitoring this talk page, you might consider creating an article talk subpage like Talk:Nuclear weapons and Israel/1966-present by clicking on that link, and drafting your content there. You can dispense with the text diff (change x to y template) and simply write content as you would to an article. Then when you're ready for review you can open a new edit request in the article's main talk page and transfer your finalized content to it from the subpage. Xan747 (talk) 18:11, 25 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I didn't know frequent small changes would bother people. It was probably OK yesterday, but I saw some things today that I could have said more clearly. If you are still online, please let me know if anything else needs fixing? 2405:6E00:634:5C60:E8B8:C05F:E3C7:1883 (talk) 22:05, 25 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to leave it alone now.
I'll fix small errors if I see them before you respond, but it's ready for review / discussion / feedback whenever you are next available.
Are the quotes in the sources too long? they can be trimmed or removed if needed, but a few of the sources were paywalled.
2405:6E00:634:5C60:E8B8:C05F:E3C7:1883 (talk) 02:26, 26 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

For the footnotes below I used code copied from the article, because that should mean footnotes look the same way they would in the article? 2405:6E00:634:5C60:E8B8:C05F:E3C7:1883 (talk) 21:59, 25 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Date of first nukes

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> Its first deliverable nuclear weapon is thought to have been completed in late 1966 or early 1967; which would make it the sixth country in the world to have developed them.

The sources only say May 1967, no mention of 1966 except as a predicted date earlier in the 60s.78.80.84.41 (talk) 05:04, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You need to do an "edit request". 2405:6E00:633:FA70:C668:CA8F:82B3:7CCF (talk) 03:50, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If you create an official edit request, some editor will see it and respond. Without an official one, it is more chance if someone sees it. But I have seen this edit request, and I have found a source that says late 1966, that I now have added to the article, so late 1966 stays. Friendly, Lova Falk (talk) 15:51, 28 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Statements lacking certainty on possession

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I removed statements from the lead which lack certainty on the claim that Israel possesses nuclear weapons. For example "Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons" to "Israel possesses nuclear weapons".

I think the former phrasing can lead to incorrect interpretations by new readers, for example that some fringe scholars exist which do not believe that, or that there is a lack of conclusive direct evidence on the claim of possession.

I think the latter phrasing cannot be interpreted incorrectly. It might not hint towards the ambiguity policy but neither did the former phrasing. It certainly does not imply any contradiction with the ambiguity policy.

However, the ambiguity policy, as well as Israel's sole possession in the Middle East, are the most important themes of the article, certainly above the size of the arsenal mentioned in the second line. I suggest the first two lines of the article could become "Israel possesses nuclear weapons, but does not formally acknowledge this. It is the only country in the Middle East with this capability." Doeze (talk) 13:44, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted. This has been discussed many times over. That doesn't mean it's settled for all time, just a caution against rehashing old arguments. We have shied away from unqualified assertions that Israel possesses nuclear weapons because of Israel's deliberate ambiguity (or as Avner Cohen says opacity). It's not clear that we have found the best way to qualify those assertions, so feel free to suggest something better. NPguy (talk) 19:35, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The ambiguity only comes from the government of Israel, which is not a reliable source. Reliable sources don't express any doubt about the possession of nuclear weapons by Israel. Vpab15 (talk) 09:31, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Doeze (talk) 10:50, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The ambiguity policy has no bearing on the conclusion of 100% of scholars that Israel has nuclear weapons, and that therefore should be the first line of the article. The UK House of Commons describes it as "universally acknowledged" (except by the Israeli government of course); https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9075/.
I can see an argument for maintaining it based on English language news articles often using the phrase "Israel is widely believed/assumed/supposed to have nuclear weapons, but neither confirms nor denies this." I think the phrase I previously suggested is more accurate. The state of affairs that could be conjured, in the mind of a new reader, by the phrase "widely believed" implies some shadow of a doubt, akin more to a murky question of unproven possession like North Korean nuclear possession immediately before its 2006 test. I think the first line should reflect the very different universal consensus.
Can you also point to the many times over discussions in the past five years? The most recent section I see on this page is the suggestion by @Onanoff to name the array of sources contributing to the consensus on the question, which I don't think is necessary. Doeze (talk) 11:28, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This has happened many times over, mostly in List of states with nuclear weapons. Look in the talk page archives. I just listened to Avner Cohen's recent podcast and was surprised to note that he thinks Israel probably does not have fully assembled nuclear weapons. That's a technicality, but a meaningful one. And e's the best scholarly source on Israel's nuclear program. NPguy (talk) 16:47, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that is worth mentioning in the lead, but I'd also point out China similarly does not store most or all of its warheads mated to delivery vehicles according to the Nuclear Notebook (also this seems very impractical for Chinese and Israeli submarines). It's also worth pointing out, although not in the lead, that during the secret 1960s US negotiations Israel argued that before it has carried out a nuclear test it only has "nuclear devices" not "nuclear weapons". I haven't yet found any sources connecting this to a possible internal Israeli view of the Vela incident. Lastly, I'd suggest most of the politicians who have 'let it slip' over the years probably don't see a big distinction like this between the status of Israel and its weapons compared to other countries and theirs. Doeze (talk) 22:47, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I made some edits to the lede (by the way, the oddly spelled "lede" is journalism jargon for the opening paragraph) to put Israel's non-confirmation in the first line. I also think that Israeli officials have occasionally slipped is partly to the internal secrecy surrounding the program. So few people are in the know that it hard to impose message discipline. It is telling that the slips are always quickly corrected. NPguy (talk) 16:58, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have not been party to previous discussions on this topic, and quickly scanning them, no clear conclusion jumps out at me. My opinion is that order of the first two paragraphs in the top section is inverted. The first sentence should be along the lines of describing Israel's long-standing policy of neither confirming or denying they possess deliverable nuclear weapons, but are widely believed to have them. Then the first paragraph describes their stance. The second paragraph then covers why it is believed they posses them. That said, I feel more strongly that the first sentence of the article read along the lines of how I have described it. Xan747 (talk) 20:13, 23 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 23 October 2025

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Thanks, Glasspalace (talk | contribs) 04:54, 1 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Nuclear weapons and Israel → Nuclear weapons of IsraelNuclear weapons of Israel – To move this page in line with Nuclear weapons of the United States and Nuclear weapons of the United Kingdom. This page has extensive discussion of Israel's own nuclear weapons, and limited focus on the nuclear weapons of other countries. It should not be in the class of pages where an "and" relationship is relevant e.g. Canada and weapons of mass destruction. Doeze (talk) 23:10, 23 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose keep "Nuclear weapons of Israel" as a reasonable redirect, but since it is still not entirely recognized or acknowledged that Israel has nuclear weapons, we should stick with the current title. Iljhgtn (talk) 23:51, 23 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I understand the premise especially since all the other pages have that title format and I get the need for consistency but since Israel has never fully acknowledged having weapons it wouldn't be honest to adjust the title. In addition the page itself also focuses heavily on the United States involvement with nuclear weapons and Israel, so I think the current title works. Agnieszka653 (talk) 23:56, 23 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I would point out the focus on US involvement is focus on US concerns and involvement with the development of nuclear weapons of Israel, and discussion of the nuclear weapons of the United States itself is limited. Moreover, the United Kingdom's development history of nuclear weapons is infinitely more connected to the United States, in technical terms there may not exist "Nuclear weapons of the United Kingdom", nonetheless the article title reflects the military reality. Doeze (talk) 01:29, 24 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is recognized by a universal scholarly consensus. It is further recognized by the major intelligence agencies of the world, and the resulting actions of other governments. I think it is detrimental for the article title to not reflect that consensus. It is not justified by the lack of official statements by other governments. The article is part of WikiProjects Israel, Military history, Physics, Engineering, and Environment; the title has a responsibility to reflect a technical, military, and geopolitical reality much more than it has to reflect international diplomacy. Doeze (talk) 01:23, 24 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Israel is unique in not confirming that it has nuclear weapons. That justifies a different title. I'm not wedded to the "and" formulation, but "of" seems presumptuous. NPguy (talk) 19:27, 24 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    @NPguy True, but it is not unique in history for states to have nuclear weapons and not admit it including the US and USSR. Could you tell me more what you mean by presumptuous? I would not be opposed to a third option put forward either but that seems quite a tricky task. Doeze (talk) 00:45, 25 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't have a better idea. I don't know what you're referring to about the US and USSR not acknowledging having nuclear weapons. The only comparable case I can think of is India between 1974 and 1998. NPguy (talk) 19:06, 26 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I was referring to the US' brief secrecy of its capability during 1945, and the USSR's denial of its first nuclear test. I would say the most comparable case is South Africa. Pakistan also had the ability to detonate nuclear weapons from apparently 1984 to 1998. I just think it being unique right now shouldn't justify the title. Doeze (talk) 00:01, 27 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support there is no dispute in RS that Israel has nuclear weapons. Unless opposes are able to find such sources, I think their !votes have no policy basis and should be disregarded by the closer. (t · c) buidhe 23:45, 24 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
(t · c) buidhe I would like to point out that consensus is not built by setting conditions on others’ arguments; demanding that certain !votes be disregarded if they don’t meet your own criteria goes against the whole idea of collaborative discussion. Lova Falk (talk) 07:00, 26 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We should base our articles on reliable sources, not on sources that are not reliable, such as Israeli government. If there is no dispute in reliable sources it is against the NPOV policy to portray it as disputed on Wikipedia, local consensus cannot override this fact. (t · c) buidhe 13:32, 26 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The question is not the factual one, whether Israel has nuclear weapons, but whether Israel's unique status merits a different name. NPguy (talk) 19:04, 26 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
(t · c) buidhe Actually, this feels like a straw man. Of course we should base our articles on reliable sources, where did you hear me say differently? This discussion is about and or of. Lova Falk (talk) 06:47, 27 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If there is no dispute over whether Israel has nuclear weapons it's pov to defer to the Israeli government POV and treat it differently than any other state that has them. (t · c) buidhe 07:38, 27 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The one aspect that differs from other states with nukes is that these other states don't deny having them, and this very important difference is correctly reflected in the name "Nuclear weapons and Israel". Lova Falk (talk) 09:15, 27 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: The article's current name accurately reflects Israel's unique status of a state which has an official policy of neither confirming nor denying possession of deliverable nuclear weapons, even though it is widely (and credibly) believed to have them. While their stance is clearly a minority "opinion", I think some deference to their official position is due in the form of the current title. This is a case where it is hard to find bright-line policy guidance, and local consensus of editor discretion seems appropriate. Xan747 (talk) 18:23, 25 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I appreciate your nuance. I am not sure I agree with your characterization of it as an "official" policy or position. It is not a law or explicitly articulated anywhere, except by inference. By the same token, we could say Israel "officially" has nuclear weapons. I think it is slightly misleading to discuss this topic with "widely believed", there isis no other kind of belief in RS, it is universal. I would not characterize the Israeli position as a "minority opinion" that exists in the sphere of scholarship consensus, it exists separately as a diplomatic device. I absolutely agree this should be a part of the article but does not need deference in the title. Doeze (talk) 12:26, 26 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: per Xan747. Edit: The more I think about it: "Nuclear weapons and Israel" says that there is an issue to explore - it is not just that Israel most likely has nuclear weapons but also that they deny having them. "Nuclear weapons of Israel" just says that they have them, but it is not the correct title for the issue we discuss in the article. Lova Falk (talk) 09:12, 27 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per buidhe. What the Israeli government does or does not officially recognize has no bearing on the title of this article. Israel's nuclear weapons are a well-established fact. EvansHallBear (talk) 06:10, 27 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, the policy of deliberate ambiguity is just a minor aspect of Israel's nuclear program. It turns out the UK also has a similar policy according to the linked article, so no reason to single out Israel. Vpab15 (talk) 10:34, 27 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 November 2025

[edit]
See also: Talk: Nuclear weapons and Israel § Edit request 16 June 2025

Note: This is a simplified version of the edit request above, because the above version might have been too complicated for an edit request.

Diff:

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=== Weapons production, 1966–present === Israel is believed to have begun full-scale production of nuclear weapons following the 1967 [[Six-Day War]], although it had built its first operational nuclear weapon by December 1966. A [[Central Intelligence Agency]] (CIA) report from early 1967 stated that Israel had the materials to construct a bomb in six to eight weeks and some authors suggest that Israel had two crude bombs ready for use during the war. According to US journalist [[Seymour Hersh]], everything was ready for production at this time save an official order to do so. Israel crossed the nuclear threshold on the eve of the Six-Day War in May 1967. "[Prime Minister Levi] Eshkol, according to a number of Israeli sources, secretly ordered the [[Dimona]] [nuclear reactor] scientists to assemble two crude nuclear devices. He placed them under the command of Brigadier General Yitzhak Yaakov, the chief of research and development in Israel's Defense Ministry. One official said the operation was referred to as Spider because the nuclear devices were inelegant contraptions with appendages sticking out. The crude atomic bombs were readied for deployment on trucks that could race to the Egyptian border for detonation in the event Arab forces overwhelmed Israeli defenses". Another CIA report from 1968 states that "Israel might undertake a nuclear weapons program in the next several years"...
+
=== Weapons production, 1966–present === Israel is believed to have begun full-scale production of nuclear weapons following the 1967 [[Six-Day War]], although it had built its first operational nuclear weapon by December 1966. A [[Central Intelligence Agency]] (CIA) report from early 1967 stated that Israel had the materials to construct a bomb in six to eight weeks and some authors suggest that Israel had two crude bombs ready for use during the war. According to US journalist [[Seymour Hersh]], everything was ready for production at this time save an official order to do so. Israel crossed the nuclear threshold on the eve of the Six-Day War in May 1967. "[Prime Minister Levi] [[Levi Eshkol|Eshkol]], according to a number of Israeli sources, secretly ordered the [[Dimona]] [nuclear reactor] scientists to assemble two crude nuclear devices. He placed them under the command of Brigadier General {{Interlanguage link|Yitzhak Yaakov|he|יצחק יעקב}}, the chief of research and development in Israel's Defense Ministry. One official said the operation was referred to as Spider because the nuclear devices were inelegant contraptions with appendages sticking out. The crude atomic bombs were readied for deployment on trucks that could race to the Egyptian border for detonation in the event Arab forces overwhelmed Israeli defenses". Spider (עכביש) was the name for the devices. The name for the plan was ''Operation Shimshon'' (מבצע שמשון), named after the [[Samson #Death |death of Samson]] in [[Judges 16:30]]. General Yaakov also sometimes called the plan ''[[Operation Doomsday]]''. Another CIA report from 1968 states that "Israel might undertake a nuclear weapons program in the next several years"...
  • There are multiple sources for the name, to show the name is widely used, but I combined them into a footnote.
  1. ^ Operation Shimshon,[6][7] Operation Samson,[8][9] codename "Samson" (Hebrew: שם הקוד "שמשון"),[10][11] or Hebrew: מבצע שמשון, romanized: Mivtza Shimshon.[5][12]
  2. ^ Hebrew: מבצע יום הדין, romanized: Mivtza Yum Hadin.[13][14][15]
  • The two 2017 sources from Haaretz (Hebrew and English) are different stories with different authors.

Without long quotes: Here is a version of the added section without the longer quotes in the sources, to save you the trouble of removing them if they are too long.

Spider (עכביש) was the name for the devices.[16] The name for the plan was Operation Shimshon (מבצע שמשון), named after the death of Samson in Judges 16:30.[a] General Yaakov also sometimes called the plan Operation Doomsday.[b]

Footnotes

  1. ^ Operation Shimshon,[17][18] Operation Samson,[19][20] codename "Samson" (Hebrew: שם הקוד "שמשון"),[21][22] or Hebrew: מבצע שמשון, romanized: Mivtza Shimshon.[23][24]
  2. ^ Hebrew: מבצע יום הדין, romanized: Mivtza Yum Hadin.[25][26][27]

2405:6E00:634:207F:4838:1732:E83A:5FDF (talk) 19:01, 3 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]