Talk:Allegations of genocide in the October 7 attacks

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This article was nominated for deletion on 12 December 2023. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

On 30 December 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Allegations of genocide during the Israel–Hamas war. The result of the discussion was not moved.

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This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Aaron Bandler (July 25, 2024). "Wikipedia Editors Title Article "Gaza Genocide"". The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles. Retrieved August 7, 2024. Interestingly, there is a Wikipedia article titled "Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel" and there was a brief discussion on if it should be renamed to "Genocide in the 2023-led Hamas attack on Israel" that appears to have stalled out.

Title

October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel as genocide might be a more intuitive title. Any objections? FortunateSons (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't find that intuitive. —Alalch E. 01:12, 21 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

While I'm not opposed to changing the title, this suggestions seems clunky. Do you have a rational for it?

I would point to the Ukraine article, and the former name of the Gaza article as examples of use using the structure "Allegations/Accusations of Genocide in Event". -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:54, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Largely the same argument that applied to using Gaza genocide instead of the longer title, while trying to avoid the sort of discussion directly below this one :) FortunateSons (talk) 09:53, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 June 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. I'm seeing a clear consensus that the article not be moved. Extermination, whilst awful, is not the same as genocide per the ICC. Most commenters agree that the use of "Allegations" is found in the majority reliable sources, and that to move it would be undue and wikivoice per WP:NPOV. (closed by non-admin page mover) CoconutOctopus talk 20:32, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

---

Allegations of genocide in the October 7 attacks → Genocide in the October 7 attacks – The ICC has accused Hamas of committing the crime of extermination, implying genocidal intent, and Hamas itself described the attacks as an act of annihilation against a nation. As with Gaza genocide, the weight of evidence suggests "allegations" is an unnecessary qualifier. JJARichardson (talk) 12:16, 1 June 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 16:42, 8 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - the crime of extermination is similar to but distinct from genocide and does not "imply genocidal intent". See the ICC's document explaining the elements of the crime. TRCRF22 (talk) 15:06, 2 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose: This proposal has no chance of being agreed, and should just be closed as an obvious non-starter. Two key words in the nominator's rationale are "accused" and "implying". The word "accusation" is merely a synonym of "allegation", so it supports the current title. We should also not decide on our own that someone is "implying" something that they are not saying directly. None of that is evidence that a consensus of independent reliable sources has agreed to refer to the actions as "genocide". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:47, 2 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per BarrelBroof and TRCRF22, and as noted, the nom's own words which are entirely in line with allegations. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 18:43, 8 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Although I understand the intention here, "allegations" continues to be the correct term. Gaza genocide is backed by more scholarly research and is more accepted by the international community. Genocide against Israel or Ukraine, as two examples, are largely etched in the context of war and have not been confirmed by international bodies. PickleG13 (talk) 20:49, 8 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NCENPOV, a contentious word such as "genocide" should be generally accepted by reliable sources. According to WP:TITLEWARRIOR#Personal_definitions, the sources themselves should use the term, we can't evaluate sources' descriptions of the event to determine if said event was a genocide. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 21:41, 8 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Support as it's a clear genocide. 1200 innocent Israeli people had been killed by the horrible terrorist organization named Hamas. AimanAbir18plus (talk) 09:58, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Were the UK and Germany committing genocide against each other by mass bombing, killing far more people than this, in the Second World War? No. Genocide is a very specific thing. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:35, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose If the title is changed, then this article may as well not exist, because it is entirely about the question of whether the attack was genocide or not rather than the attack itself. Therefore, if it is no longer a question, having an article like this would violate NPOV. It is a matter for a merge nomination, not a move request. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:18, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  So, you think killing 1200 people is not a genocide? AimanAbir18plus (talk) 16:06, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure where I ever insinuated that. But this is about what reliable sources say, not what any one person believes. Wikipedia cannot override reliable sources to establish its own separate viewpoint on a topic. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:28, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  Even according to the current WP article, almost 1200 people died, which easily fits in the definition of genocide. AimanAbir18plus (talk) 06:13, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  By definition, that's also a genocide. But, we should have been comparing between Gaza genocide and this. AimanAbir18plus (talk) 18:22, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Without absolutely concrete evidence, these can only be classed as allegations. Mass murder and genocide are not the same thing, however appalling the former may be. The murder of 1,200 people cannot possibly be taken as the destruction of a nation or ethnic group, which is what genocide is, or even the attempt at such. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:26, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  So, you think killing 1200 people is not a genocide? AimanAbir18plus (talk) 18:22, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  No, it's mass murder. Genocide is an attempt to wipe out an entire people. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:54, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  That's exactly what Hamas wanted, to wipe out the entire Jewish population. AimanAbir18plus (talk) 17:33, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.