User talk:GhostOfDanGurney

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Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American Open Wheel Racing

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There is a discussion on the above named talk page regarding implementation of a new infobox for Indycar drivers. Going off of your participation in the current discussion surrounding team nationality flags, I think you may be interested. Best regards, RegalZ8790 (talk) 20:48, 8 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Honda Indy Toronto

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Hello, you may have heard that the Toronto Indy is moving to Markham and will be known as "Ontario Honda Dealers Indy at Markham".[1][2]

At a previous RM discussion, you had argued in favour of the name "Grand Prix of Toronto" despite that name being neither the current name nor the common name. Now that the event is no longer held in Toronto, would you still have such objections during a page move discussion? I bring this to your talkpage in order for us to perhaps find some common ground before actually opening an RM. 162 etc. (talk) 16:54, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the message, @162 etc.:, here are some of my thoughts regarding this:
I think IndyCar Series at Markham Centre is a viable title which best fits the WP:CRITERIA for the 2026-2030 races at Markham Centre, but I still think "Grand Prix of Toronto" is the best name per the CRITERIA for 1986-2025 races at Exhibition Place.
The new official name retains the corporate sponsorship that led me to oppose its use as an article title on Wikipedia per WP:PROMO when a viable alternative that fit the CRITERIA existed and I believe this is still the case.
The sources make clear that this is a continuation of the race, but has moved to a new venue, so ultimately an RM is the way to go here (I had initially mulled over making a new article in this reply to avoid the RM). While Markham is a part of the Greater Toronto Area metro, it has its own municipal government which made its own deal with the race promoters and I believe will certainly feature in any commonly used name. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 17:55, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
My gripe with "Grand Prix of Toronto" is that it does not meet WP:CRITERIA, namely "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." The event was known as Molson Indy Toronto (1986–2005), Molson Grand Prix of Toronto (2006), Steelback Grand Prix of Toronto (2007), Honda Indy Toronto (2009–2023), and Ontario Honda Dealers Indy Toronto (2024–2025.) If we consider the event's entire existence, the COMMONNAME is "Indy", not "Grand Prix".
Per WP:NAMECHANGES, the current title will have to go, since the event is no longer in Toronto. (Assuming that RS use some sort of variation of "Markham Indy", which seems to be the case so far.)
I'll also point out that WP:PROMO (or specifically WP:NOTPROMO) does not actually address naming rights. It does however tell us that articles "must be written in an objective and unbiased style"; I'd argue that misrepresenting the COMMONNAME to exclude a naming rights sponsor actually violates that. 162 etc. (talk) 18:16, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
WP:PROMO (not NOTPROMO) very clearly says Wikipedia is not ... a vehicle for propaganda, advertising, and showcasing and I will use this to argue against corporate naming rights as article titles at every feasible opportunity when viable alternatives exist. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 18:29, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Naming rights are propaganda? Now that is just hyperbolic, bordering on nonsensical.
Anywho, we're a bit early to start an RM, since this was announced this morning and we'll have to wait and see what name RS end up using. If that name does end up including some kind of sponsorship, I for one will argue in its favour. Note also that so-called "viable alternatives" are not viable unless they follow Wikipedia policy, namely WP:COMMONNAME. 162 etc. (talk) 21:20, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's obviously under "advertising" not "propaganda", and trying to twist my words any other way is very telling.
Also, I'll remind that WP:COMMONNAME falls under the greater WP:AT policy page, and itself makes direct reference to WP:CRITERIA when it says Editors should also consider all five of the criteria for article titles outlined above. Point being that it's not a crutch to rely on in order to argue for a title which doesn't meet other aspects. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 22:57, 3 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@162 etc. This topic is still under discussion. Please wait until consensus has been reached before moving the page. As such, I have reverted your move. Assadzadeh (talk) 01:35, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Assadzadeh: This discussion should happen at the article talkpage, but since we're here: Please name one reliable source that uses the name "Grand Prix of Markham". 162 etc. (talk) 01:58, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Out of the two reliable sources provided below, only one of them refers to the race by its supposed official name, which at the moment is "Ontario Honda Dealers Indy", without any reference to Markham. However, as you know, IndyCar races change title sponsors all the time and as you mention, the Toronto race was known by five different names. So, if that article had used the official name when it was first created, then it would have had to be renamed five times.
Per WP:CRITERIA "Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles." and Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." As such, we already have several "Grand Prix of (insert city here)" articles that are recognizable and consistent with each other. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with assigning the generic "Grand Prix" name for the title. Assadzadeh (talk) 04:37, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The very first thing that WP:CRITERIA says is "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." Per your comment above, you are agreeing with my assessment that no reliable sources use "Grand Prix of Markham"; that title therefore fails to meet our policy.
Let's discuss this further at the article talkpage, which is a more suitable place. 162 etc. (talk) 07:13, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that we need to discuss further at the article talkpage, Grand Prix of Markham. Assadzadeh (talk) 13:32, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Very good points. Thank you. RegalZ8790 (talk) 17:22, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@162 etc. Naming rights exist exclusively for advertising purposes, which is included in WP:NOTPROMO. Electricmemory (talk) 12:37, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: Discussion continuing on what is currently Talk:Grand Prix of Markham ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 15:59, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTPROMO

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I've been mulling over this for a bit, but what to do about the egregious amounts of NOTPROMO violations across motorsports articles? I agree with you that naming rights qualify as a violation of this but I've got no real idea on what to do about it. Electricmemory (talk) 12:38, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Electricmemory: Give people viable (as per WP:AT) alternative article titles to use and argue for them as civilly and concisely as you can. One of the things I'm most proud of on Wiki is starting the trend of moving articles on race histories from their ever-changing sponsored titles to "[Series] at [track]".
Also, accepting that there will be some things where there is no viable alternative, such as individual race articles and likely with "O'Reilly Auto Parts Series" as well, as unfortunate as it is.
And as you can see above, there are people who take an opposite view, who argue for naming rights in article titles. ―"Ghost of Dan Gurney" (hihi) 15:55, 4 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ https://www.indycar.com/news/2025/09/09-03-markham-2026
  2. ^ https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-indycar-moving-to-markham-2026-1.7623660