Talk:Time zone

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Borders of Ukraine

Thread retitled from Incorrect map.

Part of Ukraine marked as Russian territory! 5.173.146.26 (talk) 10:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not marked as Russian territory. The international borders on the map are white lines, and the border between Ukraine and Russia is shown as internationally recognized. The red lines are only the separation between time zones. The red line separating the occupied part of Ukraine from the rest of the country is just like in other countries with more than one time zone. Heitordp (talk) 12:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ukraine did not make decisions about changing time zones in the Temporarily Occupied Territories.

Therefore, within the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine, a single time zone applies throughout its territory. FarCryMan (talk) 13:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@FarCryMan: The map is supposed to show the time zone that is actually used in each location, regardless of laws or how it was decided. The occupied territories of Ukraine actually use UTC+3, so the map shows them this way. There are also other areas in the world that use time zones different from what is defined by law (for example in Australia, Canada and United States), and the map shows their actual practice. Heitordp (talk) 14:39, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where do you get information about the actual timezone used in these territories?

Please provide the source. FarCryMan (talk) 19:59, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@FarCryMan: Several news articles reported that Crimea and the portions of Donetsk and Luhansk regions administered by separatists or by Russia changed to Moscow time in 2014:[1][2][3] Similarly, several news articles reported that the parts of Ukraine occupied by Russia in 2022 also changed to Moscow time: "our city lives by Moscow time",[4] "Mariupol is now in the Moscow time zone",[5] "Currently, Moscow time is de facto in effect in the new regions",[6] "the regions had shifted to Moscow time".[7] Heitordp (talk) 21:39, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Heitordp Sorry, but you're wrong. The map is supposed to show the time zone that is actually used in each location, regardless of laws or how it was decided - time zone itself is an artificial concept created by humans, that doesn't actually exist "regardless of laws". Each person technically can live by any time zone he wants. The occupied territories of Ukraine actually use UTC+3 - who exactly uses it? Government appointed by russians or people living here? Are you 100% sure that the population of occupied territories actually live by Moscow time and not the Kyiv one?

Russians can claim anything, but there is such thing as international law. This is why, for instance, official political maps of the world and Europe don't present occupied Ukrainian territories as part of the RF. AFAICS you're the only editor (and creator) of both maps, but, in my opinion, such disputed changes shouldn't be done based on the opinion of only one person. I suggest reverting edits related to Ukrainian time zones until a consensus between multiple users is reached. Thanks! Прусак (talk) 00:56, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Прусак: The time zone of an area is whatever time the people in that area use for practical purposes. Usually it matches the law, but not always. As I mentioned above, there are many areas in the world that use a time that is different from what the law defines. For example, these maps from the Canadian government show the areas with the time that is legislated and what is actually observed; they are different in most of Labrador and in parts of Ontario, Saskatechewan and British Columbia. These articles explain the situation in Labrador:[8][9] Similarly, several small areas in the United States use a time that is different from law:[10] A small portion of Western Australia also uses a time that is not defined by law:[11][12]

It's not that "Each person technically can live by any time zone". In the examples above, everyone in the area agrees that this is the time used there, and it's even displayed on road signs and public clocks, even though it's not according to the law. All of these "de facto" times are also implemented in the IANA time zone database, which is used by most computer systems worldwide, and in the time zone maps in Wikipedia.

The news articles that I cited in my previous reply say that the Russian government has implemented many Russian standards in the occupied regions of Ukraine, not just Moscow time but also public signs, currency, schools, telephone and television networks. I can't be totally sure if the whole population there really uses Moscow time, but that's what the news articles suggest. I know that most people there oppose the Russian occupation, but it would be impractical for them to privately use a different time from that the public services, transportation and telecommunication systems use in their area. At least in Crimea, which was annexed by Russia in 2014, it's very clear that the people there use Moscow time, as shown in these articles:[13][14] The IANA time zone database also includes Crimea in Moscow time.

I created the two SVG maps currently in the article here, but previously there was a PNG map, which another user had created. This PNG map already showed Crimea and a portion of Donetsk and Luhansk regions in UTC+3 since 2015. In 2023, a user commented that the other recently occupied areas of Ukraine should also be shown in UTC+3, so I edited the map to include them at that time. You can see that discussion here. It wasn't just my opinion. Later this topic was also discussed multiple times by other users, and the consensus each time was to keep the map as it is, showing the "de facto" time zones. Please see the discussions here, here and here. Later, I just replaced the PNG map with the SVG version, but I kept how Ukraine was already shown.

However, I understand that many users still disagree with how Ukraine is shown, so I'll start another discussion below. Heitordp (talk) 00:30, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clarification and pointing out to previous discussions. I can see your point here, but can't totally agree with it. Anyway, appreciate your willingnes for discussion Прусак (talk) 13:14, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is now run by wannabe dictators who don't like democracy, it's pointless to try to reason with them. The whole of Ukraine, including all temporarily occupied parts of it, is in one time zone. No idiot can change that. 109.87.36.102 (talk) 21:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is based on reliable sources. If you provide a reliable source that says that the occupied territories of Ukraine actually use UTC+2 in practice, I can change them on the map. I don't support the invasion of Ukraine either. Heitordp (talk) 22:14, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RFC on time zones of Ukraine and Georgia

The maps of time zones in Wikipedia (SVG, PNG) show the time actually observed in each area, de facto, regardless of legality. For example, the maps show certain parts of Australia, Canada and the United States in the time that they actually observe even though it's different from what the law specifies there. Similarly, the maps show the occupied regions of Ukraine and the separatist regions of Georgia in UTC+3, which is the time enforced by the Russian or separatist authorities there. Previous discussions about this topic resulted in keeping the map de facto, including the occupied or separatist regions in UTC+3, but many users continue to complain about it, so I'm restarting the discussion here. How should the maps show the time zones of the occupied regions of Ukraine and separatist regions of Georgia? You may answer differently for each region.

Please note that the maps still show these regions as part of Ukraine and Georgia, with the international borders as generally recognized. The question here is only regarding the time zones. For reference, the IANA time zone database includes Crimea in UTC+3, but it doesn't mention the other occupied regions of Ukraine or the separatist regions of Georgia. Heitordp (talk) 02:06, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all in UTC+3, which is de facto. Heitordp (talk) 02:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all in UTC+3 It makes sense. We tend towards 'de facto' in other areas. No reason for not mentioning the 'legal' situation though.Lukewarmbeer (talk) 08:55, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all in UTC+3 defacto information is useful, when someone wants to communicate with people in the area. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 11:28, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Use the legal time, since it is more reliably verifiable. Using what we think the de facto time is or "should" be sounds like original research, and at very least is a neutrality problem, of WP siding with occupying military or separatist militia forces in various places, without any regard to whether the everyday civilian population in these places is actually going along the perhaps temporary regime's time preferences. (Prefering the legal time zone, however, satisfies WP:DUE, since it will better agree with more of the available sources.) I'm not at all swayed by the "useful, when someone wants to communicate with people in the area" idea, since the difference is only an hour, and if you need to have a voice call or e-conference with someone in such a place you can ask them when to call, with regard to what time zone, in the course of setting that up and agreeing to do it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 14:19, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, this doesn't really solve the problem, because you still have to make a judgement about whose law you report. Both Ukraine and Russia claim the right to pass laws in Donetsk; right now, the laws passed by Russia are more likely to actually be enforced, but the laws passed by Ukraine are considered by many other countries to have more "moral right". In order to be neutral, you would need to adhere to some very strict definition, like "the time zone according to the law as passed or recognised by the country which the majority of UN member states consider to have rightful sovereignty of the territory". That might mean we need to research what hypothetical time zone "should" be in effect on the island of Taiwan according to the People's Republic of China, in the interest of "fairness", but against all common sense. - IMSoP (talk) 21:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many reliable sources have reported that these regions use UTC+3:[15][16][17][18][19][20] so this is not original research. The IANA time zone database also includes Crimea in UTC+3.[21] Meanwhile, I haven't seen any source saying that the civilian population in these regions is using another time, which I also find unlikely as it's impractical for people to use a time different from public services. Some of these regions have used UTC+3 since 2014 so at least there it's not temporary. In addition, "legal time" is unclear because Russia and separatists have also passed laws to specify UTC+3 in these regions. In my opinion, the best way to satisfy neutrality is to rely on the time actually used, not on the law of either side. Heitordp (talk) 15:06, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can understand this in regards to territories like Abkhazia, Crimea and South Ossetia, as they have been under Russian/separatist control for many years now, but are we supposed to update the map each time the front line changes? Mellk (talk) 06:31, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, each time that a front line change is visible at this map's precision, which is very infrequent. There hasn't been any visible change since November 2022. Heitordp (talk) 07:23, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At least in regards to File:World time zones.svg, which does not have thick borders, I can see that this is does not include recent Russian gains during the Pokrovsk offensive, for example. Of course, these gains are relatively small. But I agree with the general sentiment. Mellk (talk) 07:36, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Possible compromise: highlight the disputed areas. The map currently uses hatching to indicate areas which change their clocks every year; perhaps some other style could be used to indicate a region where, for one reason or another, the situation is not straightforward. Each such area could be marked with a letter referring to a footnote, where we could explain the details. That way we could find references for what "de facto" usage exists, and explain interesting cases such as Labrador mentioned above, which definitely seems like a fact worthy of an encyclopedia. - IMSoP (talk) 19:07, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that highlighting the areas and adding a footnote would add unnecessary emphasis to the dispute. Instead, as a compromise I suggest keeping the disputed areas shown with the current colors, but moving the brown line separating time zones to match the internationally recognized border between Ukraine and Russia. This way the occupied regions of Ukraine would look similar to the rest of the country, just blue rather than hatched red and blue, but with no line between them.

I suggest making this change only for Ukraine, and perhaps for Georgia, but not for the parts of Canada, US and Australia as no one has complained about them. The difference between legal and actual time in these areas is indeed worth mentioning in their respective articles on Wikipedia, and it already is, but I think that it would be excessive to also represent it on the map. Heitordp (talk) 15:42, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It can be misleading if borders are drawn with respect to international recognition but time zones are demarcated according to de facto occupation. Senorangel (talk) 03:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Accept that we cannot be authoritative in contested areas. That doesn't mean we throw in the towel, but rather we need to choose an authoritative source (such as IANA) just like we're choosing some sort of specific source for the country boarders, and simply disclose that on the document itself. Otherwise the option is to somehow indicate, as IMSoP mentioned, that the area is contested or otherwise does not follow IANA. We don't necessarily need to draw significant attention, but rather replace the UTC offset by either an astrisk or other symbol of the same size and weight that is called out as a footnote on the document. People should not be surprised when they see that indicated on the map. TiggerJay (talk) 06:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The IANA tz database makes an attempt to be as "authoritative" as possible with respect to the UTC offset and DST rules for the time that's commonly used. Europe/Simferopol is the tzid for Crimea, and reflects the switch to Moscow time. However, when it comes to the Donetsk Oblast and Luhansk Oblast/Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic, as per a message from Paul Eggert, the main tz database maintainer, those were deemed to "[fall] under the "war or insurrection" clause of the timezone identifiers guideline <https://data.iana.org/time-zones/theory.html#naming>", so no new timezone (in the tz database sense) was created; "As a practical matter, belligerents can use TZ='Europe/Moscow', TZ='Europe/Kyiv', or TZ='Asia/Tbilisi'...", so it's "authoritative" answer is pretty much "we're sticking with Ukranian and Georgian time for now, but you can choose to use Moscow time if that's what works for you". Guy Harris (talk) 08:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good find, but I would interpret its conclusion slightly more subtly. The tz database does not define the geographic boundaries of zones, but it does record their history; recognising a border change requires creating at least one new zone, choosing a name, and documenting when civil time changed in that named region. Eggert's comment is deferring to a later date the decision on how many new zones are needed, if any, and when their change in UTC offset should be documented as occurring. It leaves it up to the user how to handle things in the meantime, choosing either Europe/Kyiv or Europe/Moscow.

The tz database documentation contains links to related projects, including timezone-boundary-builder, which combines the tz database with OpenStreetMap data. Notably, that project has a file of "expected overlaps" which currently includes Abkhazia as overlapping between Asia/Tbilisi and Europe/Moscow.

I don't know much about the OpenStreetMap project, and where this issue would have been discussed, but marking Abkhazia as disputed is presumably a position they have been willing to adopt, if I'm understanding that "overlap" file correctly. Being another community-sourced project, I'm not sure we could defer to them as "authoritative", but they may have adopted a specific policy which would be relevant to this debate. - IMSoP (talk) 18:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Considering all comments, I propose the following: keep the disputed areas with the current colors; move the brown line separating time zones to match the internationally recognized borders; add an asterisk on the disputed areas; below the map, add "*These disputed areas observe UTC+3 de facto." It would look like this. What do you think? Heitordp (talk) 02:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After several days with no more comments, I implemented this proposal. Heitordp (talk) 13:04, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gulf of America/Mexico

The Gulf of AMERICA! Not Mexico! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.131.75.97 (talk) 10:11, 30 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_14172 31.131.75.97 (talk) 06:56, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

See Talk:Gulf_of_Mexico/Archive_1#Requested_move_21_January_2025. --Belbury (talk) 09:12, 11 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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Wisconsin is stated as utc-6 but as far a I calculate it is utc-5. I'm really confused cause my pc is set to utc-6 despite and when i look up utc-5 time it's the same. Piie9 (talk) 23:35, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not done Wisconsin is in the North American Central Time Zone, so standard time is UTC-6. However, Wisconsin observes daylight saving time, so the current time in Wisconsin is UTC-5. It will switch back to UTC-6 when daylight saving time ends.

The table in question shows the standard time offset for the locations in it. Guy Harris (talk) 00:19, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]