Talk:Labour Party (UK)
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Political Position
[edit]I don’t really think that it’s right to call the Labour Party centre-left anymore, especially after the recent welfare reforms, and their move away from traditional social democratic tax and spend economics. I think it would be better to call them a centrist party 2A06:61C1:D433:0:21E7:8023:136B:20F4 (talk) 00:35, 8 April 2025 (UTC)
- While I agree, I believe you will be hard pressed to find reliable, neutral, independent sources that characterise them as such. The Labour Party is hard to pin down as its ideology has changed a number of times over the past 15-20 years, and many good reliable sources still refer to the Labour Party when it held different beliefs than it does now. Even in 2024 under Starmer, the Labour Party Rule Book still identifies the party as a "democratic socialist" party despite the actions its taken in government suggesting otherwise. I have never taken part in creating a page where I had to decide how to characterise a party on the political spectrum, so I'd be interested in hearing from more experienced members. At the end of the day, however, I believe it's just going to come down to finding those reliable sources. Ashleyisvegan (talk) 22:13, 8 April 2025 (UTC)
- Very true in my opinion GUG2004FinalWars (talk) 10:15, 23 April 2025 (UTC)
- I fully agree with you, but I'm not sure it counts as a permanent/ long term change in the fundamental principles of the party, or just the current leader / current affairs.
- If there was a leadership contest tomorrow and Corbyn (or someone equally leftie) took over, the page would have to say Labour are left, and when you think about that it makes it a bit silly to just keep changing the definition and principles of Labour depending on current leadership and performance.
- There is also the fact that if an entire country's politics shifts a fair way to the right, previously centre- right policies will become centre left. If all the other parties in the UK were explicitly pro-Nazi, anti-progressive or neo-fascist, current Labour would quite definitely be left wing, comparatively.
- I think the page on Starmers premiership has more about the policies and leanings of current Labour, and there's possibly an argument to split 'Labour' and 'New Labour', but other than that I don't see a fair way to amend the definition of Labour itself without getting revisionist and potentially a live leaning-tracker of the party with every change.
- But i very much know what you mean. Moubliezpas (talk) 17:07, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
- I disagree, Starmer being leader means he represents the party & has enourmous sway so ofcourse the leader's ideology should have an impact in how the party is classified, *especially* in a parliamentary democracy where the party leader is also the head of state.
- If Corbyn became leader again & remolded the party in his image (like Starmer remolded it) then obviously I would support reclassifying the party, Starmer fundamentally changed Labour to something unrecognisable to what it was in 2019. LydiaTakesWins (talk) 11:09, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
- I really feel that we should be determining the positions of political parties in the context of the world as a whole, or at least the parts of the world that have cultural similarities with the given country (In the UK's case, "The West"), rather than only taking into account the politics within their specific country. For historical parties we can take into account the era the party existed in as well, but beyond that, can you think of how insane the Political Positions section would be if we were only considering what the party's beliefs are in relation to its country? By that logic, NSDAP was Center-Right by the time World War II came around. TheGrassWhistle (talk) 14:03, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- It's rather impossible to do that, though. The sources we use will usually be from the country that the party exists in, so will use descriptions relative to that country. That's why American sources describe the Democrats as centre-left, but in many ways they've sat to the right of the UK Conservatives a lot of the time, who are centre-right.
- We also get into the much murkier territory of what "cultural similarities" means. It's vague, can't be easily defined, and vulnerable to WP:OR. France, the UK, and America are all "the West" but very different culturally and politically. That's why all we can do is rely on the sources. — Czello (music) 14:17, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- The party is still centre-left. Other centre-left parties have the same economic policy. We don't change it for them, so we won't for Labour. Fourinmybarn (talk) 11:23, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
- What a joke. that would imply a support for workers rights, Enoch Powell was not Centre-left 78.146.240.119 (talk) 17:07, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
- I agree, I think it should be Centre-Right to Centre with factions of Centre-left to left-wing Gorgonopsi (talk) 16:29, 2 July 2025 (UTC)
- What a joke. that would imply a support for workers rights, Enoch Powell was not Centre-left 78.146.240.119 (talk) 17:07, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
- People get mad at this kind of suggestion (Even though it's entirely true) but by all means the Liberal Democratic Party is to the Left of Labour at this point, and its political position is labeled as "Center to Center-Left". We either change the LibDems to "Center-Left to Left-Wing" (Which would be ridiculous) or we accept that maybe the Labour party cannot be considered to have the same Political Position as the African National Congress anymore. TheGrassWhistle (talk) 13:55, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
- Yep. The majority of newer sources identify the party as centrist or centre-left to centrist. The latter is okay as a compromise. GayCommunist1917 (talk) 22:46, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- I'd say the acceptance of the ideas of Charles Murray show a level of Fiscal Conservatism and Social Conservatism Gorgonopsi (talk) 16:28, 2 July 2025 (UTC)
- Yep. The majority of newer sources identify the party as centrist or centre-left to centrist. The latter is okay as a compromise. GayCommunist1917 (talk) 22:46, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- I agree fully, they are not even a centre party, they are fully a right of centre party. They are a joke to the original position of their party as a party for the working class. They should be barred from being called the Labour party anymore. Neil8r (talk) 16:35, 3 July 2025 (UTC)
- I believe what should be included within the ideology box is a "wings:" section for compromise. The main ideology of the party is social democracy but there is a number of democratic socialists within the party, and undoubtedly, neoliberalism is a major wing within the Labour Party. As for the political position, as others have mentioned, a compromise solution would be naming the party centre-left to centre, as new sources can back up and as is within the LPC PLMandarynka (talk) 06:05, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
- How would this wings section look? Would it be stating the position then in brackets stating if its the main ideology or a wing? GothicGolem29 (talk) 22:18, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
- The proper term i should have used is factions. Certain other parties have minor wings of their party stated in it's position. The Republican Party currently has Christian right and Right-lib in it's 'factions'. The U.S. Democratic Party, the Brazillian Workers' Party, and others also share this. I believe it would be appropriate for a larger party like Labour. PLMandarynka (talk) 10:46, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
- Ohh ok I see what you mean. I agree with that suggestion it would be appropriate and useful to have for that for Labour. GothicGolem29 (talk) 16:51, 18 August 2025 (UTC)
- I think that is overanalyzation. Within any ideology, there will be a range of positions on different issues. There is no clear dividing line within the party.
- Factions are organized groups with defined membership, leadership and positions that compete with other groups for control. Labour has banned factions, unlike the Conservatives. TFD (talk) 20:38, 18 August 2025 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say they are necessarily "organized groups". Within the Wikipedia 'system' they are simply groups that differ from the main ideology of the party. The Republican Party doesn't have "organized factions" yet it is obvious that there are certain factions of the Republican Party, such as centre-right New England Republicans or far-right Christian Nationalists in the likes of MTG. In any large party as Labour there will be certain factions and diverging group. Besides, the democratic socialists within Labour do have their own organized faction. PLMandarynka (talk) 09:30, 19 August 2025 (UTC)
- The proper term i should have used is factions. Certain other parties have minor wings of their party stated in it's position. The Republican Party currently has Christian right and Right-lib in it's 'factions'. The U.S. Democratic Party, the Brazillian Workers' Party, and others also share this. I believe it would be appropriate for a larger party like Labour. PLMandarynka (talk) 10:46, 17 August 2025 (UTC)
- How would this wings section look? Would it be stating the position then in brackets stating if its the main ideology or a wing? GothicGolem29 (talk) 22:18, 16 August 2025 (UTC)
There's a lot of people giving personal opinions here. We go by what reliable sources explicitly state. If people want change to be implemented, they need to provide reliable sources that explicitly say the party has a position that is something other than centre-left. Helper201 (talk) 12:34, 4 July 2025 (UTC)
- Happy to provide a reliable and impartial source:
- The Political Compass https://www.politicalcompass.org/uk2024
- Labour were neither left nor centrist at the last GE and have shifted more to the right/authoritarian end of the scales since then.
- They are more right wing and more authoritarian then some previous Conservative parties.
- Having the party listed as left wing here is incredibly misleading and dangerous as it undermines legitimate discussion given that wiki is an authoritative source. Andrew G Hart (talk) 10:58, 7 August 2025 (UTC)
- As mentioned above, the political compass doesn't even come close to being reliable. — Czello (music) 11:02, 7 August 2025 (UTC)
Left, Right or Centre?
[edit]Ideology
Given that Starmer is shamelessly using UKIP's Taking Back Control quote, and he is now playing their race (hate) card, how can this article continue to maintain that the "Labour sits on the centre-left of the political spectrum"?
For unless anyone has the real and convincing evidence to support this centre-left comment, should it not be deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:23c6:27a1:5401:7de7:867b:e024:d1c2 (talk) 18:59, 12 May 2025 (UTC)
- We say what the sources say; we don't make interpretations based on a speech. — Czello (music) 19:25, 12 May 2025 (UTC)
- https://www.politicalcompass.org/uk2024
- An objective and reliable source Andrew G Hart (talk) 10:59, 7 August 2025 (UTC)
- Political Compass is laughably out of touch on these things. Not even close to being objective or reliable. — Czello (music) 11:00, 7 August 2025 (UTC)
- Neither objective nor reliable. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 11:01, 7 August 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with your interpretation of the comments, but I think that would mean the Wikipedia definition of every political party would change every time a notable figure said something of great importance.
- Or, more importantly, every time they were reported as saying that.
- Starmer isn't the labour party, so he could say he personally loves the right wing and that still wouldn't affect the position of the labour party. And bear in mind, all media landscapes have a bias. If the BBC's bias was towards the right wing, Starmer could spend all day singing communist hymns and enacting every left wing policy the electorate could ask for, but a biased media would still only report what's likely to turn his voters against him.
- That's not saying the BBC is untrustworthy, only illustrating why a quote or trend of quotes about indvividuals don't define the party's position, unless they're in accordance with actions, policies, or first hand sources.
- There's also the fact that if personal opinion about individuals should define whether a party is left or right wing, one could very easily argue that the UK has had no left wing for decades, while people with a right-wing outlook could honestly argue that every party in the UK is left wing.
- I don't disagree with your opinion, but Wikipedia shouldn't be the place for emotional interpretation. It often is, but that's a whole other story. Moubliezpas (talk) 15:46, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- They did not utilize any quotes or slogans from UKIP. Numerous centre-left parties across Europe maintain robust immigration policies; should we also alter their ideologies? For instance, the Social Democrats in Denmark have immigration policies that are similar to those of the Labour Party in the UK. Addressing immigration is not solely a concern of the left or the right. 2A0A:EF40:E45:9F01:ED3B:EB32:63F6:1557 (talk) 20:00, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- We would need sourcing for any of this. I'd support the centre to centre-left descriptor but this has been debated to the moon and back (see several previous discussions on this talk page and its archive), even if there are several sources which describe the party as centrist. I would also add that nothing from the speech suggests a more right-ward position. An anti-immigration stance is traditionally a leftist position in Britain and if anything Labour has moved to the left on this specific matter now. TheHarveyWallbanger (talk) 07:13, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with the sentiment that the Labour Party is no longer a true party of the centre-left, however, a large amount of reliable sources describing it otherwise would be needed to change the descriptor on this page, WP:ECREE. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 06:11, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
- I added them into the article. GayCommunist1917 (talk) 08:37, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
But is not that speech, along with other comments, another clear indication of the centre-right direction the Labour Party is moving? For — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:23c6:27a1:5401:4442:44b9:39d9:ac6 (talk • contribs)
- Again, that decision is not ours to make. — Czello (music) 09:04, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- I found dozens of sources describing the party as centrist since Starmer. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41293-025-00277-6
- Labour has promoted socially conservative policies through attacks on LGBT rights, supported and continued the Tories neoliberal policies, made anti-immigration speeches... Social liberalism and social democracy would be a gooe compromise. Clearly not center-left. Nope.
- GlowstoneUnknown is right. Center-left to centrist is a compromise at best. They're arguably further right than that. Gone is abolishing or even reforming capitalism. If you support capitalism indefinitely you're centrist at best. GayCommunist1917 (talk) 08:36, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- The problem with "since Starmer" is that it means we're engaging in WP:RECENTISM. — Czello (music) 10:15, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- Tony Blair was 20 years ago. It's well-known that social liberalism and social democracy are the two major tendencies of the Labour Party since the mid-1990s. Unless there's information that disputes it we should cite the 2025 article on the party which identifies the changes of the 2000s, 2010s, and partial 2020s instead of relying on outdated citations. GayCommunist1917 (talk) 22:30, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- The problem with "since Starmer" is that it means we're engaging in WP:RECENTISM. — Czello (music) 10:15, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
Okay, but what do sources say about the statement (in the article) that the Labour Party is 'centre-left'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:23c6:27a1:5401:2514:cb7b:6caf:5f2a (talk • contribs)
- The majority of sources still describe the party as being centre-left. We wouldn't look at altering the ideology based on one speech, nor look for new sources because of it, as that would be WP:RECENTISM. Also please remember to sign your posts by typing four tildes at the end (~~~~) — Czello (music) 09:53, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- This 2025 citation doesn't. Old Labour's decline under Tony Blair happened 20+ years ago and a majority of modern sources describe it as a coalition of social liberals, social democrats, and a comparably right-leaning mixture of heterogenous British ethnic minorities. On both social and cultural issues the party is to the right of the Liberal Democrats... which is currently listed as "centre-left to centre" on their respective Wikipedia page. GayCommunist1917 (talk) 22:40, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
To be clear, while an article of notable historical subject matter should not be changed due to any transient news report, might not an update be consider in relation to a media event/speech that is set against a long standing perspective? 2A00:23C6:27A1:5401:2514:CB7B:6CAF:5F2A (talk) 11:02, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- The term centre-left was coined in order to group political parties with social democratic backgrounds with the Democratic Party of the U.S. So Labour is centre-left by definition. However, since it therefore adds nothing to the article, it should be removed. TFD (talk) 14:49, 13 May 2025 (UTC)
- I think we have to go with what sources say for now. However, I did find one source that referred to the Labour Party as centrist: [1] --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 19:26, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
- I disagree. The article should provide unambiguous information. If we want to explain where Labour fits in the political spectrum, it could be written in a section of the article. But putting it into the info-box creates more confusion than clarity.
- Notice there is no definition of centrist. It's a relative term and is only meaningful if the author explains what they group as left or right. TFD (talk) 01:53, 21 May 2025 (UTC)
- Well if we are to look at their policy towards the welfare state, Rachel Reeves is echoing Charles Murray's theory of Culture of Dependency, not particularly left-wing
- Personally, I believe that language is being mistified and people are all trying to go round saying how is something this, or how is something that, I think that you only need a basic understanding of sociology to say that atleast socially and fiscally the Labour Party have become a Conservative Party with left-wing elements within it, essentially its now the Democratic Party in the USA of the UK Gorgonopsi (talk) 16:28, 2 July 2025 (UTC)
- https://www.politicalcompass.org/uk2024
- An objective source that looks at actual policies not just opinion peices.
- Labour are most definitely not even remotely left nor centrist. Andrew G Hart (talk) 11:02, 7 August 2025 (UTC)
- Neither objective nor a reliable source. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 11:03, 7 August 2025 (UTC)
- That is not a reliable source. GothicGolem29 (talk) 12:31, 7 August 2025 (UTC)
- I think we have to go with what sources say for now. However, I did find one source that referred to the Labour Party as centrist: [1] --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 19:26, 14 May 2025 (UTC)
Divide:
[edit]My opinion is that center-left and center-right parties are generally "big tent parties" that can go from centrism to right-wing politics depending on who the current leader is. We didn't change Labour to be left-wing under Corbyn and I don't think we should label it centrist under Starmer. The same applies to the Democrats and Republicans in the United States, Labor and the Liberals in Australia, and the Tory party itself. Different factions get dominance and then recede. It's inconsistent and introduces bias to say that Starmer's side or Corbyn's side is "the party". The same applies to other traditional center-left and center-right parties.
I've noticed that the political spectrum designations in the infoboxes are wildly inconsistent. UnashamedPapist (talk) 22:22, 15 May 2025 (UTC)
Updating the infobox
[edit]The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The article is citing decades (10-20 years) old sources to make claims that clearly ring as false today. I believe we should:
- Removing mention of Labour and the Tories being the two-major parties of the United Kingdom. Even outside of Northern Ireland, this claim is pretty laughable, and it would be best if we excluded a question claim like this.
- Change centre-left to "centre-left to centre". The majority of sources state that that the party is more accurately described as a coalition of social liberals, social democrats, and ethnic minority voters. Attempts to nationalize a majority of the economy or to have "worker co-ops" are no longer common. Many sources go further but won't push that for now. Nominally, they still claim to adhere to at least social democracy, although a majority of this appears to be inertia rather than policy.
- "A coalition of democratic socialists, social democrats, and trade unions/working class voters" to "Social liberals, social democrats, and an heterogenous mixture of many ethnic minority British voters".
All these clakms are readily found in the academic literature and the apparent majority viewpoint. The most recent is 2025. The British Liberal Democrats are unanimously considered to be to the left of modern Labour Pary yet we list them as "centre to centre-left". I don't think this makes much sense and we should improve the article.
Thanks. GayCommunist1917 (talk) 22:57, 24 May 2025 (UTC)
- Have you read any other articles on this talk page? 2A0E:CB01:36:D640:104B:4723:3203:C72E (talk) 14:39, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
- Thats not a laughable claim at Uk level those two are the two main parties
- I agree on this point GothicGolem29 (talk) 20:45, 22 June 2025 (UTC)
to be clear, a political party can change its political view and thus Labour these days should be an extreme right or right wing party. 178.226.49.200 (talk) 12:22, 26 May 2025 (UTC)
- "Extreme right" is laughable. You will not find sources that support this. — Czello (music) 06:40, 28 May 2025 (UTC)
- A majority Sources do not describe Labour as extreme right and ive not actually see any describe them as such GothicGolem29 (talk) 20:45, 22 June 2025 (UTC)
- That's a good one. Just because Starmer has tacked socially conservative to appeal to the traditional rural base that Reform is threatening to take doesn't mean Labour is now right-wing. I'd describe them as "centrist" at the moment, although all the left now seems to hate Starmer for being dangerously moderate. Moderation is good, when the alternative is her or him. Cremastra (talk) 23:19, 22 June 2025 (UTC)
- So we're in agreement to change the article? GayCommunist1917 (talk) 06:25, 23 June 2025 (UTC)
- There is still not a consensus for this, particularly with the sources you have provided per Helper201's last edit summary. — Czello (music) 06:42, 23 June 2025 (UTC)
- I think Starmer's centrist bent is temporary and the overall ideology of Labour is still centre-left. Parties move around within a spectrum, and Labour is certainly having a right-ward swing now, but I don't think it's permanent. We don't need to change their ideology every time they get a new leader and shift slightly one way or the other. Cremastra (talk) 12:14, 23 June 2025 (UTC)
- Indeed; we didn't shift them further to the left under Corbyn, and the same logic should apply now; as has been mentioned previously, it's WP:RECENTISM. — Czello (music) 12:23, 23 June 2025 (UTC)
- Agreed if multiple leaders were more right leaning or centrist then I could see more of a point to be changing but it should not be changed because of one leader. GothicGolem29 (talk) 12:32, 23 June 2025 (UTC)
- So we're in agreement to change the article? GayCommunist1917 (talk) 06:25, 23 June 2025 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2025
[edit]![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Bobsmacarena (talk) 16:17, 16 July 2025 (UTC)
Keir Starmer suspended 4 MPs, Labour are now on 399 MPs.
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. meamemg (talk) 17:11, 16 July 2025 (UTC)