Talk:Caste system in India

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Skin color

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I was reading encyclopedia articles from the 80s and 90s. It said that people who were higher in the caste system had lighter color skin and people lower on the caste system had darker color skin. It is implied that the caste system is a form of racism. Hope this helps the article.

Urgent Action Required Vanjari and Banjara are different need separate article

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Wikipedia combining Vanjari and banjara page which create misinterpretation and need separate articles Banjara different while Vanjari caste are different and redirected to Banjara. might me causing problems. It is more realistic to treat Banjara and Vanjari as two different ethnic groups unrelated to each other. Chandubangar (talk) 06:54, 25 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request 6 October 2025

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"Add original study references instead of media reports alone" This section only cites media reports & not the study based upon which the onset of endogamy during Gupta empire are made -

{{Text diff ORIGINAL_WIKITEXT |2= CHANGED_WIKITEXT }}

Furthermore add data & info. from new study "Reconstructing the history of founder events using genome-wide patterns of allele sharing across individuals".[1]

Response to paper regarding 22.5 yrs. generation time parameter which suggested onset of endogamy during Gupta empire - [2]

Recent paper abt. founder events in South Asian peoples which further complicates the onset of endogamy & Gupta empire link - [3]

Note from recent study "Reconstructing the history of founder events using genome-wide patterns of allele sharing across individuals" -

The large and comprehensive set of samples from India in our study—including samples from most geographical regions, speakers of all major language families and tribal and caste groups—highlights the widespread history of founder events in this region and provides insights about the origin of endogamy in India (S2 Table). In many Indian communities, marriages across caste (varṇa) and sub-castes (jāti) are restricted. Earlier writings describe the caste system—comprising Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra—as a class structure based on occupation. The later writings especially the law code of Manu (Manusmṛiti) introduced restrictions against intermarriage across castes [61]; though the chronology of Manusmṛiti remains debated [62]. Alternatively, the origin of endogamy has been proposed to be very recent—tracing back to restrictions against intermarriages that occurred in the past few hundred years during the British Raj [63]. Our direct estimates of founder ages provide an independent line of evidence to understand the origin of endogamy in India. We inferred that these founder events occurred between ~120–3,500 years ago across 78 ethno-linguistic groups in India. Our dates are consistent with a previous smaller survey including 13 ethno-linguistic groups from India [18]. In a majority of the populations, the founder events occurred within the past 600–1,000 years, suggesting this period was integral to shaping endogamy in India. These estimates pre-date the British colonization of India but postdate the ANI-ASI admixture (or spread of Iranian farmer or Steppe pastoralist ancestry to the subcontinent) [27,41]. Endogamy likely became stronger during the British Raj which could have further contributed to the founder events in many groups. In this scenario, our dates would reflect average estimates of multiple founder events, though the patterns we observe cannot be fully explained by recent events alone.

This study must also be added to highlight evolution of genetic studies & their results regarding South Asian peoples -

Lastly an older study "Population differentiation of southern Indian male lineages correlates with agricultural expansions predating the caste system" suggests earlier onset of endogamy in South India based upon male lineages [4] [5]

References

  1. ^ Genomic reconstruction of the history of extant populations of India reveals five distinct ancestral components and a complex structure https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4760789/
  2. ^ Emergence of sociocultural norms restricting intermarriage in large social strata (endogamy) coincides with foreign invasions of India https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4843417/
  3. ^ Reconstructing the history of founder events using genome-wide patterns of allele sharing across individuals https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1010243
  4. ^ Population differentiation of southern Indian male lineages correlates with agricultural expansions predating the caste system https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23209694/
  5. ^ Caste system: an indigenous invention in South India? https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/caste-system-an-indigenous-invention-in-south-india/article4290662.ece

Periodisation issue (edit request on 21 October 2025)

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Requesting the 3rd paragraph under the subsection "Early Vedic period (1500-1000 BCE)" of the section "History" to be moved to the "Later Vedic period (1000–600 BC)". The 3rd paragraph explicitly says the transition to a 4-varna system occured during the later Atharvaveda period, corresponding to the beginning of the later vedic period. So it would be approriate to include the 3rd paragraph as part of the "Later Vedic period (1000–600 BC)" subsection of the "History" section. 212.104.231.142 (talk) 11:38, 21 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Removing the template since this needs discussion.
Joshua Jonathan, we apparently have a problem with periodisation. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:31, 21 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Kautilya3 I just checked the source (1958...); I have a hard time to read the info from that paragraph into those pages... Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:35, 21 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, guess who added it diff; not MSW... Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:38, 21 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Lol. I can double check the source, but the question is with regard to the meaning of "Ealy Vedic" and "Later Vedic". RS Sharma's meaning is that Early Vedic includes the compilation of all the Vedas, and Later Vedic is the period of Brahmanas and Srauthasutras. Is that reasonable from your point of view? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:01, 21 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I added a link to the 1958 edition now. But you would need access to archive.org, which has been misbehaving. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:28, 21 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 October 2025 (2)

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The sentence "This class-distinction is still reflected in the fact that the upper castes have a higher genetic affinity to Europeans, while the lower castes are more similar to Asians." in the 3rd paragraph of the subsection "Early Vedic period (1500-1000 BCE)" is misleading. I suggest it should be changed to "This class-distinction is still reflected in the fact that the upper castes have a relatively higher steppe ancestry than the lower castes.". The reasoning for the change in wording is that the population of North Indians despite their caste, have steppe input in varying levels. While the Brahmins of the Northwest may have relatively higher steppe ancestry than the lower castes, the net steppe ancestry among all populations in south asia is a minority, peaking at ~30%(in populations like the Rors of Jatland). 212.104.231.142 (talk) 11:53, 21 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Thank you. This suggestion seems more reasonable than the existing text, especially for NPOV, so I've made the change. Perhaps this section could be further improved in the future. TimSmit (talk) 18:54, 22 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request 9 November 2025

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Description of suggested change:

Can you add this video of granitng caste in Kerala in 2205? Caste is kerala like kaimal and nambiar was given by kings and has been continuing.

Can you add this where it in the article it best fit?

Granting of the castes, Nambiar and Kaimal in nov 2025 , a continuing traditional ceremony conducted by the Nileswaram Raja since the time when local rulers held authority.

Madankoolon (talk) 19:52, 8 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. Please use a "change X to Y" format. NotJamestack (talk) 19:16, 10 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]