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Because it is standard, long-established practice. In turn, I have absolutely no idea why you think an exception to a universal WP:FOOTY standard should be made for this player. As I repeat below, when a player is born in one country but has only represented another internationally, the lede is made ambiguous and the MOS:ENGVAR follows the national team. You are an incredibly experienced editor, so I'm shocked that this appears to be new to you. Anwegmann (talk) 22:16, 14 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with Sharky000, even if I think their tone is rather aggressive. It is widespread, consensus-driven, long-established WP:FOOTY standard to make the lede ambiguous when a player was born in one country but has only represented another country internationally. There is no reason at all to make an exception for this one article. Beyond some reliable evidence proving that he actively does not identify as American, we should follow the practice shown in literally hundreds and hundreds of similar articles. Because he has only played for an American national team and yet was born in England, the lede should be ambiguous and the MOS:ENGVAR of the article should be American English. It is very simple. Anwegmann (talk) 22:10, 14 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Anwegmann has given a much more extensive and formal justification. I believe that there is nothing that can refute this point. Therefore it is simply bad faith, if anyone continues to do these baseless edits. I apologize if I come off aggressive, but reality is all of you (not Anwegmann) should really use some common sense, or just not edit articles. Thanks. Sharky000 (talk) 22:20, 14 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I think Govvy is referring to this discussion in their edit summary as though it's consensus, which it very clearly is not. Indeed, others in the discussion seemed to have no idea what Govvy was arguing, much less agreeing with them. That, and there are several other discussions that establish the universal practice of an ambiguous lede. If Govvy would like to provide a direct link to a discussion that shows that consensus is, indeed, ignoring a player's national team representation and following where they were born in all cases, I am very curious to see it. And if it exists, I will adjust my editing practices accordingly. But the fact remains that nearly every footballer article for dual-nationals who only played for their non-birth country follow the same pattern: Ambiguous lede and national team-specific ENGVAR. That establishes consensus through universal practice on its own. Anwegmann (talk) 22:29, 14 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I trust @GiantSnowman's take on things like this. They are a very experienced editor, especially within the realm of football, and I have seen them fight against what they have termed "Nationalistic nonsense" and/or "Nationalistic vandalism" before—especially recently with dual-national Indonesian and Malaysian players' articles. If this article deserves to be treated differently, I would like to hear Snowman's explanation why, given my history with them and the trust I have in their editing practices. Anwegmann (talk) 22:44, 14 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is odd. I'm certainly fine with following what the Premier League establishes, because it's a reliable source. Thanks for posting it and clarifying. Govvy's oddly interpretative and subjective ENGVAR nationalism, I'll note, is decidedly not consensus, and his arguments mean nothing here. Follow the sources, not unsupported whims, as the old saying goes. Anwegmann (talk) 22:24, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily a valid argument, and speaking based on assumptions here, but possibly the Prem is referring to his call up to England U-21 (although it’s worth mentioning he didn’t end up playing, leaving him still as a English-born player who last played for the USA) Either that, or they simply never updated his profile from “English” to “American” after his US debut. Sharky000 (talk) 02:34, 16 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
He is English. The soccer player last represented the US almost a decade ago, and he has recently been called up for England. I have no idea why some editors are trying to Americanize his article. EliteBossman (talk) 20:58, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
He has never represented the ENG. Stop with these foolish edits. If you can prove that he has REPRESENTED England after the USA, then your point will stand. So stop with your ignorance please, your point is hilariously dumb. Sharky000 (talk) 20:30, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
He is American. If he isn’t, how the hell did he play for the USA? Even, lets say, hypothetically he wasn’t a US citizen, that wouldn’t even matter, since he is of USA (not ENG) sporting nationality. Sharky000 (talk) 20:33, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Many players on the USA team grew up in ENG (Y. Musah, F. Balogun, A. Robinson, C. Carter-Vickers), and probably have never resided in the USA, they are still American (not England) sporting nationality. Sharky000 (talk) 20:36, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such thing as a "Sporting nationality!" The gist here is, he was born in England, lives in England and is primarily English, this comes before being American. Being a duel national doesn't mean you should ignore his primary nationality, which is what you're doing. As for the Carter-Vickers that's also written wrong, it should be using British English, DMY regardless of representation. Govvy (talk) 20:42, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There is a whole wiki article on Sporting nationality, so yes it does exist and is a real thing. Many players live in another country, like their ones of birth or residency, and have the citizenship of that country, however they represent another team. That is their sporting nationality, for example let’s say Carter-Vickers, he is born and bred in England, and he is legally of English/UK nationality, since he is in England, however his sporting nationality is American since he plays for the USA. Same thing goes for Brandon Austin. I am very surprised, you look like an experienced football/soccer Wikipedia editor, but didn’t even know about sporting nationality. Sharky000 (talk) 21:26, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
With your foolish logic you should change many footballers/soccer players’ Wikipedia articles. Let me repeat for you: A player’s ethnicity, place of birth, place of residence, accent, legal nationality (the country that they are currently protected in, like a UK-US citizen is only British in the UK, and only American in the USA), and other factors don’t matter. What matters for footballers’ Wiki articles is: what national team did they last represent? (or if they have never represented a nation: what country were they born in?) Sharky000 (talk) 21:35, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Because he has represented the United States, he assuredly has American nationality. How are you so capable of asserting these seemingly random, unsupported facts about this player—"He doesn't have US nationality" (even without the actual appearance for a US national team, how would you know that? Can you prove it?) and "He doesn't even have US residency" (again, how do you know that? Can you prove it? And what difference does that make? Residence is not required for citizenship in the United States—see jus sanguinis—and it is not required for maintaining nationality almost anywhere.)You seem to be fixated on presumed "facts" that have no basis outside of your own imagining. It is also impossible for you to know, certainly without a source, that he is "primarily English." By your definition, then Diego Costa should be described in the lede as Brazilian—he was born in Brazil, lives in Brazil, and so he must be "primarily Brazilian," right? Same goes for Tom Cairney and countless others. This isn't a matter of WP:OTHERSTUFF, either, because it is such a universal practice throughout WP:FOOTY. Your interpretation is absolutely the exception to consensus. You are literally arguing for things that you don't know and cannot be known without evidence. Anwegmann (talk) 22:19, 15 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Anwegmann is correct, @Govvy is bringing baseless claims based on personal whims and desires. Many players are “primarily X” but represent country Y. I’m really interested in knowing how @Govvy came to the conclusion that Austin isn’t American. It has always been an undisputed fact that he is a dual citizen. You switched from saying he is a dual citizen, to saying he isn’t of US nationality. Sharky000 (talk) 02:25, 16 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
FIFA nationality is USA not ENG since he has never represented England, and he has only played for the USA. Even though he was called up for England U-19 and U-21, he didn’t play a match. Sharky000 (talk) 02:29, 16 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Govvy I apologize for my tone. I was getting carried away, but I believe my point stands. And I don’t regret initiating the “Americanizing” of this article, otherwise the article wouldn’t have been accurate, or even recognized as a problem by prominent editors. Sharky000 (talk) 02:00, 4 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The guy is a duel citizen, however, he lives in England, grew up in England, speaks English, writes in British English, speaks British English, has an English accent, plays for a British football team. Figure that out! :/ Govvy (talk) 10:48, 4 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I know, but still, none of those points matter in his international Football career. Same thing would apply if there was a “[A] guy [that] is a duel citizen, however, [that] lives in [America], grew up in [America], speaks English, writes in [American] English, speaks [American] English, has an [American] accent, [and] plays for a [American soccer] team”, but still represented England internationally. Sharky000 (talk) 19:18, 4 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What is wrong with you @Sharky000? Why don’t you simply take responsibility for your actions, and surrender the fact you are always wrong. You’re risking getting blocked, and I truly hope if you don’t stop you will be permanently banned from editing on Wikipedia. Your behavior is very selfish-like, and you frequently mock others and use outrageous insults, so I suggest you revert all your edits and apologize to @GiantSnowman and @Govvy. EliteBossman (talk) 21:04, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Both England and the USA are English speaking nations. Therefore, I don’t see how the DMY and “footballer” aspects of this article are recommended. By the way @Govvy is the individual who seriously (or sarcastically) tried to hint at the fact that Austin is his neighbor. Also @EliteBossman is a troll (possibly alt) account. He has dedicated his time to scolding me, and has refused to make points to dispute any of my points. yung SH4RK (talk) 21:18, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Now that everything seems to have calmed down due to the admin actions recently imposed, I have taken a look at the whole article and I can see it is in a poor state with inconsistent date format throughout. To all editors in this discussion who can still edit, shall we use the English date formatting or the US one? Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 22:52, 25 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
