Talk:Origin of speech


Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 15 January 2019 and 25 April 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ylevin2020, Sonydalapati. Peer reviewers: Kileytimmons, AieshaB.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:58, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Phonemic diversity

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The recent studies of phonemic diversity as evidence of human migration history aren't worth the paper they are printed on, as any historical linguist would tell you. They are published by non-linguists who don't understand what phonemes are or how language change works, but merely assume that it is the same as genetic change. However phonemes are theoretical abstractions and depend on the interpretation of a linguist and the particular theopretical framework she uses - so a single language may be analyzed as having 25 phonemes or 85 depending on the chosen analysis (for example; several languages in Mesoamerica have this type of analytical questions). Second phonemes are not necessarily inherited but are frequently laterally transmitted between populations leaving no trace behind of the original configuration (unlike genes). Linguists like Levinson, Evans, Bowern and many others have refuted these bogus studies but so-called scientists refuse to listen to actual experts in the area they are studying and keep publishing new just-so stories like the recent Perreault and Mathews paper and Atkinsons earlier paper making the same claims. This article should not describe those studies as presenting fact, because they don't. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:26, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhere along the path from apes to humans, the addition of a new gene to the genome allowed a transiently activatable surface on the pharyngeal wall to form speech sounds. There is a place for each voiced sound, all together they form the pronunciation nest of a particular language. Voiceless consonants make words easier to understand and increase their number. It was now possible to put an idea into the combination of sounds that the whole human herd understood in the same way.
The monkey's pharyngeal wall has no activatable surface. The shortest: The dumb person and the monkey do not speak because they have no speech sounds.
Leonhard Klaar 212.53.117.118 (talk) 01:16, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, a chimp can produce a wide enough range of sounds that it would have all the phonemes it needed to speak, if only it had the cognative abilities. It wouldn't sound like a human language, it wouldn't be English, but there are enough speech sounds to let it be as complex as English. It's a mistake to think that speech presupposes the full evolution of the speech organs. Rather, the reverse is true: the way evolution works requires that people began to speak first, and the evolutionary advantages that speech brought would then drive the optimization of the speech organs. Doric Loon (talk) 17:40, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
To distinguish articles and improve; proposal withdrawn by proposer, with a negotiated course of action (see final comments by Doric Loon and Frphnflng. Klbrain (talk) 15:31, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I propose merging this article with Origin of Language. The merged article should probably be here, though I don't have strong feelings about that. In principle, "language" and "speech" are not necessarily the same thing, and both pages could be kept if a distinction is being made. But at present I don't see any such distinction, and if one is intended it is certainly not explained. It seems that both of them cover much the same ground. Doric Loon (talk) 17:21, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ok 173.18.124.148 (talk) 03:48, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree topics are similar but independently notable and it would be I think confusing to have them together. Distinction is better made I think by improving the articles. Tom (LT) (talk) 06:14, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Tom (LT), it would be helpful if you could say what distinction is being made (or what distinction you think should be made). At present the two articles seem to me to address an identical set of questions. Doric Loon (talk) 17:34, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - The origin of language article is about the literal origin of language, its relationship with human evolution, and its consequences, while the origin of speech article is about the physiological development of the human speech organs. Treetoes023 (talk) 05:40, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Treetoes023, that's not what the opening sentence of this article says, but if you want to change the opening of both articles to make that distinction clear, I would withdraw the merge proposal. Doric Loon (talk) 07:38, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But then other changes would have to follow. If I understand Treetoes023 correctly, then the whole of sections 5 and 6 would have to be deleted from this article and worked into the other one. Is there a consensus for that? Doric Loon (talk) 11:43, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:OVERLAP – I changed my mind from opposing the merge to supporting the merge. After reading Doric Loon's comments I decide to read the entirety of both articles instead of just skimming and I've come to the conclusion that it would be a better fit if the pages where just one as the origin of speech is a subtopic of the origin of language and is not different enough to have its own dedicated article along with the fact that the origin of speech article says a lot of the same things that the origin of language article does. Treetoes023 (talk) 17:23, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. If we do merge these, I think origin of language is the more general topic and therefore the better merge target. For example, according to one major theory, language evolved independently of speech. – Joe (talk) 09:17, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, if the articles are merged "Origin of speech" should be merged into "Origin of language" because it is the more general topic, not the other way around. Treetoes023 (talk) 17:03, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per @Treetoes023 and agree that it should be merged into Origin of language. Irecorsan (talk) 10:06, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – Hey, this merge discussion is open for almost a year. Be bold and please either merge it or close the stale merge proposal. Pinging Doric Loon, Treetoes023, Joe Roe, Irecorsan, Tom (LT). Artem.G (talk) 19:52, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Artem.G: I agree, I left a message on Doric Loon's talk page about it a month ago, but he never responded. – Treetoes023 (talk) 20:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Artem.G, sorry for not having responded. I'm in a stressful phase, so I've not had much time for Wikipedia. I do think this merge should go ahead now, but I fear it may be quite a big job. But yes, let's do it. Doric Loon (talk) 13:42, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on the grounds that both articles are already too long (each alone are over the 100k at which a split is usually warranted), so merge is implausible. Thus it's best to split the content between the two articles (or probably more); so, restructure rather than merge. Speech focussing just on the physiological development of the human speech organs, and the language article contain the rest might be one way of doing so. Klbrain (talk) 22:17, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
STRENUOUSLY Oppose (5th comment ever, 1st since 2016. Please be gentle re: Wiki folkways.) I'm an academic linguist and a researcher in this topic, just stumbled on this article and am horrified. Doric Loon's suggestion only makes sense at all because this article is so clogged with material that belongs not here, but in Origin of Language, if at all. The articles on Language and Speech have their own problems, but they succeed in making clear the distinction made in every intro to linguistics class between language as carrying meaning and speech as getting language out of one person's mouth and into another's ear. This article fails entirely to maintain that distinction. An account of how both production and perception of vocal language evolved is a vigorous and current research topic, and is the proper subject of this article, which needs radical surgery, but not suppression by merger.
I won't have the time for at least a year to figure out editing and Wikipedia practices enough to fix this (and maybe Speech) myself, so could somebody start by lopping off the "Speculative Scenarios" and "Conceptual Frameworks" parts? They have nothing at all to do with vocal speech as such, so that would be a start. Thanks. Frphnflng (talk) 22:06, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Frphnflng, I quite agree with you about the distinction that could be made. Trouble is, the two articles at present are not making it. I thought a merge was the simplest solution, and I think it would work since language and speech evolved in parallel, but a two-article solution would work too, if we are strict about what belongs where.
At this point I should probably withdaraw the merge proposal, since I also am struggling to find enough Wikipedia time to tackle this very big topic, and there clearly is not a consensus. But I wonder, Frphnflng, since you have researched in the field, if you could be persuaded to re-write the head of both articles, even if you can't do more than that.
Meantime, I am going to delete those two sections that you mentioned. Those were indeed the sections that first made me unhappy with this article. In case there is good material there that should be used elsewhere, I will copy the sections in here, in a foldaway box.
Doric Loon (talk) 15:04, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Plans for Rewrites (No-Merge Decision Aftermath)

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Thanks, @Doric Loon and @Klbrain, for concurring and for help.  There's more, though.  Even with that extraneous material dispatched, this is not better than Origin of Language, which is apparently graded as C-Class, however those grades are given.  Can this be downgraded to C as well? I'm not convinced it should be High Importance, either, or at least not higher than Origin of Language.
As for me rewriting the head, I'm sympathetic and interested, but as a researcher in the area I've got a subjective opinion about what's what.  I can write objectively about the material and about my scientific opponents, but I'd want somebody to supervise my potential conflicts of interest and my adherence to Wikipedia mission boundaries.  What is the mechanism for that?
Regardless of my sympathy and interest, I'm staring down the barrels of 4 deadlines and can't commit to even looking at just reworking the article head until Christmas break, if then.  Meantime, I encourage anybody to make any improvements that inspire them.
(FYI, Doric Loon, recent research makes it substantially less likely that speech and language evolved in parallel, so the dispute against that previously long-held consensus is part of what needs discussing here.)
Frphnflng (talk) 20:32, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Frphnflng: Given your views, I've changed the project assessments; any user can review, and as you've looked through the pages carefully and have subject expertise, your view is sufficient to justify the change. Regarding conflict of interest, if you're looking to cite your own work or reviews, then I suggest using Template:Edit COI here; otherwise, proceed with editing and if someone disagrees then they can revert and discuss here on the talk page. Don't worry about the timescale; working on it at some point over the next few months seems very reasonsable (and very helpful!). Klbrain (talk) 11:20, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Frphnflng What you just said about recent research seems so counter-intuitive to me that we definitely need your expertise. I'm also a university teacher and researcher (in quite a different field), and if you look at my userpage (User:Doric Loon) towards the bottom you'll see what I've written there about Conflicts of Interest - you would be wise to do something like that to protect yourself. But beyond that, you should feel free to edit on the basis of your expertise, and it is OK to cite your own work if you tell us you are doing so. Doric Loon (talk) 18:45, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]