Talk:Mrs.

Non-English languages

From what I've been told while studying German, the distinction between 'Frau' and 'Fräulein' is based on age, not marital status. Does anyone else know the current usage?

At least in Germany Fräulein is hardly used anymore, people use Frau regardless of age or martial status. If used, Fräulein is used for an unmarried woman (regardless of her age) or a waitress (regardless of her martial status). It is also sometimes used for a minor women, but as soon as one is not sure if she is an adult, Frau is used. Since a woman may not marry in Germany before the age of 18, that also is a reference to her martial status, not really her age. --Smorg 11:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Martial" status? There's a good Freudian slip. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The distinction is a little unclear, even for Germans. Probably because it is used for a woman, who is not yet considered an adult by whatever standards are/were applicable. But "Fräulein" has become very uncommon. My advice would be to not use it, since there are many now who consider "Fräulein" impolite or even insulting. --141.20.102.73 (talk) 14:08, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Miss" is pre-Victorian

Surely the use of "Miss" for unmarried women pre-dates the Victorian era. Check out the novels of Jane Austen, (written in the reign of George III) - "Miss Bennet" etc.

Marital Status

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WP:NOTFORUM

The unmarried form or Mr should clearly be Mist. 217.147.80.137 02:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply] Not clear to me. Complete nonsense Miss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.34.160.96 (talk) 15:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply] It's interesting the article says a widow retains the 'right' to use 'Mrs'. Who deems those rights? Are there any legal docoments, particularly in the US or Canada? I prescribe to the idea that women have the 'right' to use any title they choose regardless of marital status -- never married, presently married, divorced, widowed etc. If women freely chose, there may be even more confusion, but it eventually would break down any connections between marital status and female titles. Perhaps it would spur the dropping of titles althogether (that, in my opinion would not be a bad thing. Annielou22 (talk) 17:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply] Many women, especially in older generations, retain the "Mrs." after they've been widowed, for some degree of protection. Like retaining their husband's name in the phone directory, to lessen the possibility of harassment. Baseball Bugs ^What's up, Doc? 17:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply] In the US, titles are purely social, not specified by law. Miss Manners, Emily Post, etc. have stated that, according to standard etiquette, a widow who has, during her marriage, chosen to be addressed as Mrs. John Doe should still be addressed that way. They've had to state this strongly because of the many busybodies who tell widows they have to stop wearing their wedding rings and change the way they're adddressed. Yes, a woman can use any title (Miss, Ms., Mrs., Princess, etc.) she wants. However, just as there are jerks who refuse to call a woman Ms. Maidenname, there are also jerks who start calling a widow by a name and title she doesn't want (actually, they're usually the same jerks, because they're eager to disrespect women either way). Ariadne55 (talk) 18:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply] Yes, those are normal rules of etiquette, which is obviously not legally binding; and a believer in etiquette would also take the time to find out how someone wants to be addressed rather than imposing his viewpoint on the matter. Baseball Bugs ^What's up, Doc? 23:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply] I'm reminded of the old TV quiz show, What's My Line?, in which everyone called each other Mr., Mrs. or Miss rather than by their first names - and when a female guest would enter, host John Daly would always ask, "Is it Miss or Mrs.?" That was long before "Ms." was in common usage, of course. Anyway, they don't do quiz shows that way any more - it's all on a first-name basis, like they were old friends or something. Baseball Bugs ^What's up, Doc? 23:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

marital status unknown

This page didn't address the one reason I came here. I need a definitive answer, if you don't know a woman's marital status, how should you address her?

• If marital status is unknown, Ms. should be used. MlleDiderot 04:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You don't address a woman directly as "Ms." any more than you would call her "Mrs." directly. "Miss" goes either way, but "Ma'am" is probably the most polite approach. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not by "Ms." alone. You might address her as "Ms. Jones" if you know her surname. Kostaki mou (talk) 02:17, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above from Baseball Bugs is a rather Americanised approach - in the UK at least it is very rare for someone to be called "Ma'am" (unless you're the Queen), and Ms. would be the standard. I think this should also be reflected in the article, which suggests that all countries use this as standard, when "Ma'am" is actually not widely used outside of the USA. 79.123.51.121 (talk) 15:03, 11 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Title of article?

shouldnt this article be entitled Misses instead of Mrs.? Mrs. is the abbreviation for Misses and it would be proper it the page were titled that.

• Well, it might be - except that Mrs is a contraction of Mistress. Snalwibma 06:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Contradictions with Miss/Ms. pages?

This Ms. page states that Ms. is considered the default business standard (overridden if the woman is known to prefer Mrs./Miss) but this page implies that only a few women go with "Ms." and the majority use the more traditional forms. I'm inclined to believe the Ms. page based on personal experience, but are there significant regional differences in Mrs./Ms. usage? MlleDiderot 04:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is business professional standard to refrain from addressing women in terms of their relational status. It is also illegal to ask an employee about their relational status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.149.184.199 (talk) 10:14, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Plural

The plural of mister is messrs. What is the plural of mrs? --Camaeron (talk) 20:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mesdames. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.149.184.199 (talk) 10:17, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Mrs

According to wikipedia guidlines this page ought to be moved to "Mrs" (no full stop/period) as most English-Speaking countries use this form...--Camaeron (talk) 16:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you care to point out that guideline? I believe most people in the English speaking world use the full stop anyway. A count of a bunch of small countries doesn't seem to trump a half a billion other people, IMHO.Njsustain (talk) 18:26, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Etiquette vs. Actual Usage

It seems to me that much of this article is taken from sources describing proper etiquette, and there is a great deal of information about actual usage that is missing. For example, the statement that Mrs. is only used when the woman takes the husband's last name: I have specific knowledge of one married woman that use Mrs. but does not use her husband's last name. Therefore, that generalization is false. There is a similar problem with the statement that "few married women choose Mrs. in professional life", although at least that statement is weaseled out of being a generalization with the word "few" (although I would argue that the weasel word should be "many").

I came to Wikipedia to find out how the term "Mrs." is actually used, not how some individual, or rather, organization decided it should be used. 69.95.235.226 (talk) 19:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mz. is used also, is it not?

I thought Mz. was an uncommon but acceptable title as well. Is this not the case? At the very least, I think the article should mention it, even just to say that it is not used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.3.198.108 (talk) 15:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's a link to Ms. and other social titles at the bottom. Ariadne55 (talk) 18:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Medieval official

The Missus dominicus, commonly known as a missus, was an important Carolingian office used throughout the empire to disseminate the king's orders and to represent him. Could this article possibly have a link to it? 'Missus' is the usual word used to refer to one of these people. fluoronaut (talk) 08:50, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article has several similar hatnotes under which that could be added. It could be phrased "Missus" redirects here. For the Carolingian officials, see Missus dominicus. Ariadne55 (talk) 13:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Style and italics

WP:MOS suggests that the instances of "Mrs" and "Mistress" etc. should be Mrs and Mistress and so on. Would I be wrong to alter these, i.e., to change quotations marks to italics? --beefyt (talk) 17:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Full stop is not cultural

The assertion in the first sentence that the full stop following Mrs is a cultural typography is incorrect. There is no convention in the U.S. concerning the full stop, at least not amongst style guides or typography texts. There is a convention amongst typographers not to use a full stop following an abbreviation ending in the same letter as the full word. Mrs and Mr (as well as Dr) each end in the same letter as the unabbreviated form, therefore may be written without the full stop. In comparison, Prof. would be written with a full stop. The only reference given for the assertion in the text is to the article on Abbreviations, which itself is lacking in references.--88.64.20.78 (talk) 00:06, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is standard in the US to use a period after Mrs., Ms., and Dr. Your claim that there is no such convention is rubbish. Njsustain (talk) 21:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My brother has an invitation to a garden party at Buckingham Palace. The Lord Chamberlain uses a full stop after the s, as in "Mrs. Jane Doe" as well as after the r "Mr. John Doe" so I disagree with the assertion about UK usage DaveEnglish (talk) 08:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC) Dave[reply]

pronunciation of "Mesdames"?

My dictionary (Webster's New College World) agrees that the plural of Mrs. is "Mesdames", which also functions as the plural of "Madam" and "Madame". It gives the pronunciation as /meɪdɑm/ much like in French, but I can't say I've once heard anyone actually pronounce it that way (or any way, that matter) as the plural of "Mrs." Comments? Benwing (talk) 06:25, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

pronunciation

I added the normal pronunciation of this word, and then noticed that Mel Etitis removed it long ago, claiming there were numerous regional pronunciations. Maybe, but that is a poor reason for not providing the standard pronunciation, given that there is one, and every dictionary will agree on it. Benwing (talk) 06:29, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Under the old style of references, would Portia de Rossi be "Mrs. Ellen DeGeneris"?

I note that the old custom of taking your husband's name in formal references gets more confusing with the recent emergence of lesbian and gay marriage. Take, for example, Portia de Rossi, who has taken her wife's surname, DeGeneris. So wouldn't both of them properly be "Mrs. Ellen DeGeneris", under the old system? And, if so, who could tell which person was which if one were to type up a formal letter? 198.151.130.41 (talk) 20:16, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose that the couple would be called "Mrs. and Mrs. DeGeneris" in proper company. Or "Mrs. de Rossi and Mrs. DeGeneris". Too bad there's no corresponding title for a husband that's distinctive from that for a bachelor. 198.151.130.41 (talk) 20:20, 17 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One may use one's common-sense and see that the old style of reference does not contain the slightest idea about how to treat a "lesbian and gay marriage". The obvious solution, thus, is to keep the names as they are, and if one takes the name of the other, to treat it as a name-change (i. e. as if she had been born with the name). If you are a gay marriage opponent, you would stick to "Miss", such as indicating your opinion that marital status hasn't changed; if you are a gay marriage proponent, I presume you would take "Mrs." - but, seriously, you would take the person's actual first name, so as not to sound ridiculous. (If you are a gay marriage opponent but fear court action, I guess you would go for "Ms".)--2001:A61:20DA:5C01:4D4E:B912:D2FB:F9C3 (talk) 00:12, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is now very uncommon for a woman to be addressed using her husband's first name

I think what is intended is "referred to as," not "addressed." I don't think Mrs. John Smith would ever have been addressed as "John." She would either be addressed as "Mrs. Smith" or, if by someone on a first-name basis with her, as "Jane" (or "Hortense," or whatever). Kostaki mou (talk) 00:35, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge with MRS Degree

The article lacks sufficient context to be recognised as a subject to have an article of its own.  SAMI  ^talk 10:42, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is heinous and derogatory to combine an honorific title with an an insult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.149.184.199 (talk) 10:10, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia articles shouldn't be removed because someone finds them heinous or derogatory. It's history, deal with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.125.29.163 (talk) 00:46, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like this proposal is stale and has strong opposition. If someone is keen, then a merge elsewhere might be better, like matchmaking. Klbrain (talk) 10:18, 9 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

MRS degree was re-directing to a no longer existent section, so I've changed it to MRS Degree, which does have minimal content. I've also deleted the "See also" link here, as the connection is pretty tenuous. The concept has more in common with Mickey Mouse degrees than this honorific. Nick Cooper (talk) 09:32, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Upper class?

'... Mistress ... which was originally applied to both married and unmarried women in the upper class.' It seems unlikely that 'Mistress' was applied only, or at all, to women in the upper class. Women in the upper class have upper-class titles, like 'Lady', 'Duchess of'. ('Originally' is vague.) One of the authors cited as using 'Mrs' for unmarried women is Henry Fielding: if I remember correctly from Joseph Andrews, Fanny Goodwill is referred to as 'Mrs Goodwill' when someone is speaking to a child in her presence, to encourage the child to respect Fanny as an adult (she's 18 or 19). Fanny is poor and illiterate, but beautiful and virtuous, and emphatically not of the upper class. 129.67.122.97 (talk) 15:25, 14 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think ‘upper class’ is inaccurate, in this paragraph. As this [article] (currently reference 7 in the main page, and a really good read on this topic) asserts, ‘Mistress’ was used until the late-18th/early-19th century for any adult woman who had charge of people, irrespective of class. That would apply to any woman with servants (so would be fairly automatically true for anyone even modestly affluent, possibly through marriage), but would also apply to any woman with employees, thus almost any female business owner (running a pub, say, or similar). A better wording might be ‘...originally applied to both married and unmarried women who had any charge of staff’.

Incidentally, that article notes that of the definitions for ‘Mistress’ given in Johnson's dictionary (1756), *none* of them refer to marital status. NormanGray (talk) 16:02, 27 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Mrs or Mmes: plurals of Mrs ("missus" /ˈmɪsəz/)

According to the Collins Concise English Dictionary https://www.wordreference.com/definition/Mrs JMGN (talk) 17:33, 14 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]