Talk:2022 Brazilian coup plot

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Copyedit for idiom

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doing a first pass. I am pretty familiar with the events of the coup but haven't followed the judicial proceedings. Bottom line, if I introduce an error, feel free to correct it without consulting me. My primary question at the moment involves the attempt to suppress the Anderson Torres document. My change of "requested" to "moved" assumed that this was a formal court filing. Elinruby (talk) 21:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Elinruby I believe that it was a formal court filling. “Pediu" in Portuguese maybe translated into “asked”, “requested”, or, in this case, “moved”. That's depends on how to deal with the ambiguity. Erick Soares3 (talk) 21:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
if it was a legal filing then move is correct. Not that requested is exactly wrong and the machine translation did its job by choosing the most frequent usage. But if it was a legal filing then "move" is more correct. That is what I meant by possibly introducing error. Elinruby (talk) 22:35, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Needs English-language sources

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they do exist, but I need to do a couple of things before it gets dark. Will work on this a bit later if nobody else is on it by then

PS added Bolsonaro's denial of guilt to the lede. Elinruby (talk) 22:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, for now, I'm collecting some of them in § Further reading. Mathglot (talk) 02:42, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Found this for the "green and dagger arrow" recent (as of 2024) stuff: https://oglobo.globo.com/english/noticia/2024/11/19/arsenal-route-mapping-and-coup-attempt-timeline-reveals-plan-to-assassinate-moraes-lula-and-alckmin-according-to-federal-police.ghtml User:Fmoliveira (talk) 26 November 2024 — Preceding undated comment added 20:12, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Some terms in the Brazilian article are questionably linked in the Portuguese article, and we shouldn't automatically pick up those links on our translation. For example, estado de defesa is something defined in article 136 of the Brazilian Constitution; in pt-wiki, it is pipe-linked to pt:Estado de exceção, a theory by German jurist Carl Schmitt, and in our article to State of exception, in section § Draft of the coup. Does the Brazilian Constitution's article 136 really come from a German jurist of the 1920s? Maybe, but there's no citation here for that (there, neither) and we shouldn't link it if we're not sure. Editors at pt-wiki are more lax about WP:Verifiability than here, and we shouldn't just assume what editors there are doing is sourced well enough for here. Mathglot (talk) 04:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC) updated by Mathglot (talk) 04:16, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i was just now wondering if that was basically a state of emergency. I agree that the way it is presented is confusing. Also, is this what Lula used to regain control? Elinruby (talk) 04:12, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Elinruby Lula used a federal intervention in public safety to control the situation: he basically took the authority the local government had in public safety and gave it to a civilian who should answer directly to him. Erick Soares3 (talk) 10:35, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok that is the intervenor I quoted about Anderson Torres? I'll see if I can't improve that while I am in there. I have a discussion point for the group but it may take me a little while to formulate it. Elinruby (talk) 11:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Ricardo Cappelli! Erick Soares3 (talk) 12:29, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thanks Elinruby (talk) 11:08, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remember to consult the Brazilian glossary

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Remember that the Brazil Political, Legal, and Governmental Glossary is available, and may help with translations into English for certain terms. We should be very wary of machine translation, and I've already corrected one of them in the WP:LEADSENTENCE of the article, which defined the plot as happening among "articulations" of people in government (should've been, a "network" of people). If there are terms you need that ought to be in the glossary and are not, please list them below, along with the context (surrounding sentence, and link). Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 04:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

casa civil is an ILL atm Elinruby (talk) 05:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also not sure what's up with "recusal" redlink -- need to go look at Portuguese Elinruby (talk) 05:11, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Praça dos Três Poderes

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This is the breaking news article from Jan 8 2023 Elinruby (talk) 05:00, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

apparently there is also 2023 Brazilian Congress attack, not a redirect Elinruby (talk) 06:43, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is, indeed; and that article has 441 redirects, the most I've seen. Mathglot (talk) 07:06, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They had a lot of trouble naming it. I think it got move protected for a while. The thing is that the Supreme Court and the presidential palace were also attacked, but as I told them at the time-- there was a whole influx of Portuguese speaking IPs -- nobody is going to be able recognize, remember or spell "Tres Poderes" and even I had to look it up just now Elinruby (talk) 07:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Background and impact

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Since this is developing now, it's obviously too soon to have an "Impact" section, but it's not too soon to place this in context of the events which have been roiling Brazil since Bolsonaro first came to power (and possibly before). We should start a "Background" section (or, "Introduction", or whatever) and provide context for the events being reported in this article. Mathglot (talk) 07:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think we should for those who missed the event at the time Elinruby (talk) 07:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Brasilia

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@Torimem: just making sure I understand what happened on the Anderson Torres page: "Brasilia Federal District" is wrong because it isn't a municipal position? Just making sure I understand, because I think I did that here too, not expecting Americans to know that Brazil has one. And thanks, this is exactly the sort of thing I asked you to help us with. The US has a federal district also but its mayor is not in the federal cabinet. Elinruby (talk) 08:50, 10 February 2024 (UTC) hin[reply]

To put it simple, at federal level you have the president and his cabinet (which consists of "ministers"). The same structure in mirrored at state level, where we have the governors and their "secretaries". The Federal District differs from the states in that it legally has both state and municipal characteristics. In summary, it's the Federal District that has secretaries, not Brasília, both must not be conflated. Torimem (talk) 09:01, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thanks Elinruby (talk) 11:06, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I found where I did that on this page, fixing it. Thanks again. I appreciate it when people let me know I am doing stuff wrong, because then I can stop doing it. Elinruby (talk) 11:17, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Structure discussion

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  • It looks like the Tres Poderes and Capitol attack articles cover the same events and should be merged (?)
  • The thing that makes this article different is that there have been official findings of involvement by Bolsonaro and others
  • Possibly all three articles should be merged (?) - Scratch this, Tres Poderes article is about the plaza not the attack, and the Capital attack article contains enormous detail about Jan 8 only, so nothing needs to be merged, phew, although both of these need trans-title parameters and English-language references.
  • I think at this point we can safely say coup (that was a question at one point)
  • Some people's involvement was an incidental finding of the unrelated vaccine investigation (?) Were they trying to substantiate the claimed link that covid vaccines cause AIDS?nope it was this==> Or was this about fake vaccination records?
  • We should probably keep the who's who section close to list format (?) Ditto the timeline (?)
  • How about
  1. the plot
  2. army won't play (?)
  3. Jan 8
  4. intervenor, Torres booted then arrested
  5. Bolsonaro returns, is questioned
  6. .... (Some stuff about plea bargain testimony where I don't have the full sequence of events)
  7. Congressional inquiry
  8. Investigation of remarks to ambassadors
  9. i am probably missing some investigations
  10. judge's report
  11. most recent arrests.

I realize that there is probably too much here for any one person to explain in one sitting but if we get the chronology straight in the timeline (start by Googling dates), then sum the evidence (RFI calls it damning) in the evidence section, are we headed in the right direction? Elinruby (talk) 11:55, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Elinruby On the coup, sources like the CNN describes the "Tempus Veritatis" operation as "...to investigate the criminal organization that acted in the attempted coup d'état and the abolition of the Democratic Rule of Law, in order to obtain a political advantage by keeping the then president of the Republic in power. ", which makes the "coup d'état" description a legal and official term. As I remember, it all started due Bolsonaro's fake COVID-19 vaccination records, which he then used to enter the US in late December 2022. Erick Soares3 (talk) 12:41, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, I was just coming in to say that reference #3 (O Tempo) seems to indicate it was about his personal vaccination records. What a stupid reason for a plot to fail, lol. thanks for confirming Elinruby (talk) 13:12, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome! At least, this article is already receiving more attention than the COVID-19 CPI. Erick Soares3 (talk) 14:28, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You know, I think that we may have just barely touched on that when we did List of scandals in Brazil. I never saw this article though, or I would have at least done a copy-edit. If you are feeling helpful at some point, let us know if we missed anything on that list. I just saw a link to Michelle Bolsonaro's jewelry in one of the sources to this article, and felt proud ;) I wish I had expanded the one about the Yanamato though. And Tres Fronteras Elinruby (talk) 14:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the topic 7 from your list about the structure, we have the 8 January CPMI that investigated the Brasília attacks. All right! Erick Soares3 (talk) 15:38, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Printer forensics

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Plausible if it was a PDF if I am understanding this. We should try to update this point, which should be better explained if pertinent or deleted if it turns out to not apply. Elinruby (talk) 21:00, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

== Indictment

Requested move 15 September 2025

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2022 Brazilian coup plot → 2022–2023 Brazilian coup plot2022–2023 Brazilian coup plot – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here. ilikeyossy Yoshi! (msg me) 15:15, 15 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

2022 Brazilian coup plot → 2022–2023 Brazilian coup plot2022–2023 Brazilian coup plot – Per Portuguese version. ArionStar (talk) 19:47, 4 September 2025 (UTC)— Relisting. Tenshi! (Talk page) 12:18, 12 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think one should wait for the result of the trial on September 12 before making this decision. Jair Bolsonaro and the other defendants are being charged with five crimes:
  • Attempted violent abolition of the democratic rule of law;
  • Attempted coup d’état;
  • Participation in an armed criminal organization;
  • Qualified damage;
  • Deterioration of protected heritage property.
The last two crimes refer specifically to the attacks in Brasília on January 8. If one or more defendants are convicted of all the crimes, this would show a connection between the coup-plotting meetings in November–December 2022 and January 8. However, if the Supreme Court convicts the defendants of the first three crimes but acquits them of the last two, it would mean that the Court considered the core of the coup attempt to have taken place in November–December 2022, with January 8 being irrelevant in terms of coup intent.
In summary:
  • If Bolsonaro and/or the other defendants are convicted of Qualified damage and/or Deterioration of protected heritage property → rename the article to 2022–2023 Brazilian coup plot.
  • Otherwise, keep it as it is.
Victor R de Oliveira (talk) 03:50, 5 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
And in my opinion it should be seen as a coup attempt, not just plot. The investigation were explicitly that the coup went far beyond the "plotting" phase, and only failed due to the lack of support among the Armed Forces. Erick Soares3 (talk) 20:37, 11 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree that it's probably best to wait as this is an ongoing event. It may be that as time goes on a different title will be given to it in the relevant sources (newspapers, trial documents, etc), and so the article may warrant a name change then. As it stands, 2022 Brazilian coup plot is descriptive and clear enough that it's unlikely to cause confusion, so I think it makes sense to keep it for now and see how things develop. Retinalsummer (talk) 12:27, 12 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, I meant to say "discussion of trial documents". Sorry for the confusion. Retinalsummer (talk) 12:30, 12 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support — Bolsonaro has been convicted on all five charges. The storming of government buildings on January 8th, 2023 was a critical part of the coup plot.
— Combefere ★ Talk 23:08, 12 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Is it still "allegedly"?

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Since the trial has now ended in a conviction on all counts for Bolsonaro and others, can we now remove the word "allegedly" from the lead sentence? Rose Abrams (T C L) 08:15, 12 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Combefere ★ Talk 23:55, 12 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]